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Post by hunter480 on May 2, 2007 15:04:46 GMT -5
Ya know.... I've seen threads like this before, and they always end up on the path that this one is taking. Seems like some folks are scared to death about someone "trying to force me to do something...yada yada yada." Ever think for a second that maybe...just MAYBE, someone might REALLY be trying to HELP you and save your life? Everyone thinks that BIG GOVERNMENT is out to get them..... gimme a break. I suppose BIG GOVERNMENT telling me that I can't down a bottle of Jack and then go drive is all about money and corruption! Truth is... if you exercise your personal right to not buckle up, or go ahead and drink and drive, or any of the laws that are in place to try to prevent death....than go ahead... the gene pool needs filtering every now and then anyway. You guys are so stubborn and hard headed to even consider that someone might actually love you and want you around, even if that means you have to buckle up for THEIR sake. If anything.....some of these posts makes for some funny reading. Someone should be compiling them for a comedy book.
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Post by kevin1 on May 2, 2007 15:17:25 GMT -5
Well, gee, kevin, how do feel about full-face helmets and firesuits for automobile drivers and passengers? Full rollcages have been around for some time as well, and have been proven every weekend to save lives. My car, my rules, don't like it get a ride with someone else. If I supplied the helmet and fire suit and demanded that you wear it in my car would you put them on or find another ride? It wouldn't matter to me if we had a seatbelt law or not, in my car you buckle up or get out. With regard to a state law requiring seatbelt use, I support it, just as I support helmet laws for motorcycle riders. Some folks just won't believe facts about crash safety. Considering the mountains of data that conclusively prove that seatbelts are an infinitely better option than bouncing around the cabin injuring or killing the rest of the passengers or going through the windshield it surprises and depresses me that this is even an issue. "I've been in an accident or two without a belt and survived." is a pizz poor argument for a perceived loss of a freedom that never existed to begin with. You don't have a right to drive, you have the privelege of driving when you follow the rules. The rules now say "buckle up.
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Post by JohnSmiles on May 2, 2007 18:47:26 GMT -5
Ya know.... I've seen threads like this before, and they always end up on the path that this one is taking. Seems like some folks are scared to death about someone "trying to force me to do something...yada yada yada." Ever think for a second that maybe...just MAYBE, someone might REALLY be trying to HELP you and save your life? Everyone thinks that BIG GOVERNMENT is out to get them..... gimme a break. I suppose BIG GOVERNMENT telling me that I can't down a bottle of Jack and then go drive is all about money and corruption! Truth is... if you exercise your personal right to not buckle up, or go ahead and drink and drive, or any of the laws that are in place to try to prevent death....than go ahead... the gene pool needs filtering every now and then anyway. You guys are so stubborn and hard headed to even consider that someone might actually love you and want you around, even if that means you have to buckle up for THEIR sake. If anything.....some of these posts makes for some funny reading. Someone should be compiling them for a comedy book. It is amazing what SOME can post here and get by with. There was of course nothing rude or condescending about THAT was there? Why is there such a rude undertone to most of those claiming the seat belt law is a good thing? Reminds me of the tone set forth by many of those arguing AGAINST PCR's. Spin it however you wish. MY safety is none of YOUR business. It never was, and it never will be. What part of THAT can't you understand? And you talk about us being hard headed. Ya know, carbohydrates are highly addictive and also VERY bad for your health in countless ways. Proven fact. Lets support a law banning bread, pasta, sugar and all processed food. No more supersweet drinks legal anywhere. The risk is infinitely higher to Americans as a whole than driving without seatbelts. And the medical costs alone are astronomical. As one other poster once said, I also wore a seat belt most of the time up until they made it a law. If it makes you feel all warm, fuzzy and safe inside to wear a seatbelt do so. But keep your nose out of my lower body cavity. Where do you people come from that feel you HAVE OR EVEN DESERVE the right to tell others how to live? God gave you ONE life to control, and it isn't mine. And to the notion about either belting up or walking, my reply would be no thanks. That attitude would simply bring mine to the surface, and I would walk. No thought even required. Virginia Tech passed laws banning guns on campus a year ago last January. It was all very well intended.
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Post by JohnSmiles on May 2, 2007 18:55:04 GMT -5
Ya'll are WAY to bent out of shape over something that's out of your control. Wear one or don't ..........who cares?..........no sweat off of mine! Laws are changed, new laws are enacted and old laws repealed every day. This is one of them that will be repealed at some point. It is absolutely wrong. Whether driving is a privilage or a right, forcing you to wear what could just as easily GET you killed as save you is wrong. TWICE it would have killed me had I been wearing one. But lets simply ignore the OTHER side of this bs law, as it is inconvenient to attempt to argue in favor of it then.
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Post by tmarsh83 on May 2, 2007 19:16:20 GMT -5
I hadn't really paid any attention to this thread, and wondered why it was on fire...now I see...
I am in a horrible middle ground on this whole deal, and I hate being there.
First, I hate empty suits telling me anything. Somehow, I doubt when these senators get in their limos too and from banquets and fundraisers, they aren't wearing a seatbelt.
But, seatbelts save lives. Even though I think too many people that natural selection would have kicked off a hundred years ago are allowed to survive anymore...haha...that was a joke...kind of...
Personally, I am more concerned about the bans on transfats. This is a more slippery slope in my opinion. You can't use this type of grease for food. What they don't tell you is that these fats aren't all bad. Only when taken in large amounts do you really start to see the nasty effects. Much like any other food. Too much will kill you. Everything in moderation is a saying that doesn't get said much anymore. Making smoking, a legal activity, illegal everywhere, next will be alcohol, pastas are bad for you, anything will be made "illegal"...red meat next?
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Post by Woody Williams on May 2, 2007 19:48:13 GMT -5
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Post by tmarsh83 on May 2, 2007 20:59:38 GMT -5
So a 5% difference between people who used and died, and those who didn't and died. In Indiana that is. Barely inside the realm of statistical indifference...
Just a quick skim showed that there were at least 10 states that had MORE people dead while using seatbelts, than not. Boy, thats conclusive.
Sounds like another case of six of one half a dozen of another to me...
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Post by hunter480 on May 2, 2007 21:12:43 GMT -5
So a 5% difference between people who used and died, and those who didn't and died. In Indiana that is. Barely inside the realm of statistical indifference... Just a quick skim showed that there were at least 10 states that had MORE people dead while using seatbelts, than not. Boy, thats conclusive. Sounds like another case of six of one half a dozen of another to me... And do you know what you`ve just spoken to? And very neatly too-It`s that you will pass on only when God says it`s your time-seatbelt or not.
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Post by JohnSmiles on May 2, 2007 21:45:24 GMT -5
Yes, so 41% who wore belts still died versus 51% who didn't nationwide. With 7% unknown. Some states actually show more died wearing them than those who didn't. Now, factor in the number of miles driven each year (There are approximately 183 million licensed drivers nationwide and Americans drive more than 2.5 trillion miles annually www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/outreach/traftech/TT239.8.htm), and divide that by the number of deaths . . .and you get 1 fatality every 78,881 miles. This roughly equates to 10 deaths every 788,810 miles, of which 1 will be so bad no one can tell if a belt was worn, 5 will have been proven not to be wearing and 4 will have been wearing. Which would indicate that wearing seat belts will increase your odds somewhat, but not to any large degree. Which still means nothing, as the statistics do not in any way allow for the total number of people who wear versus people who do not. For, if more people do NOT wear belts than do, there will of course be a larger number of people killed NOT wearing belts. The key would be to factor in the true ratio of those who do wear vs. those who do not. I am just guessing here, but I bet more of us drive without, whether by choice or simple forgetfullness, than those who drive with. So it is not a safety issue, by any means. You are ALMOST as likely to be killed wearing one as not.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 3, 2007 5:16:14 GMT -5
...........Which still means nothing, as the statistics do not in any way allow for the total number of people who wear versus people who do not. For, if more people do NOT wear belts than do, there will of course be a larger number of people killed NOT wearing belts. The key would be to factor in the true ratio of those who do wear vs. those who do not. I am just guessing here, but I bet more of us drive without, whether by choice or simple forgetfullness, than those who drive with. Bad guess... 74 to 90 percent of motorists wear seat belts…. The 2006 seat belt survey found the following: Use in the West has achieved the 90 percent milestone, increasing from 85 percent in 2005. This increase was statistically significant. Use rates continue to be higher where laws are stronger. States in which motorists can be stopped solely for belt nonuse had a combined use rate of 85 percent in 2006, compared to 74 percent in other States. www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/RNotes/2006/810677.pdfThere are lots of other good seat belt data out there that proves seat belts save lives, John. You're good at digging up data. Look for yourself and see.
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Post by raporter on May 3, 2007 8:37:13 GMT -5
Just a though. Do those of you who are so adamantly opposed to the law tell your kids not to buckle up?
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Post by bsutravis on May 3, 2007 8:56:20 GMT -5
You know what really honks me off? I get in my truck this morning, buckle up.....as always.... Get out on the interstate and there is a SPEED LIMIT! Can you IMAGINE the gall of the gubment trying to tell me that I can't drive as fast as I want! Gesh, the nerve of that mean old Uncle Sam trying to regulate everything I do. Dang him to heck! I know it's all about writing tickets, he isn't REALLY trying to help save lives. I need to make my own country so we can all drive without seatbelts, drive as fast as we want, and live our lives WITHOUT ANY government controls.................... But I'll be danged if that govt isn't there when I WANT them to be!!!
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Post by DEERTRACKS on May 3, 2007 13:11:48 GMT -5
You know what really honks me off? I get in my truck this morning, buckle up.....as always.... Get out on the interstate and there is a SPEED LIMIT! Can you IMAGINE the gall of the gubment trying to tell me that I can't drive as fast as I want! Gesh, the nerve of that mean old Uncle Sam trying to regulate everything I do. Dang him to heck! I know it's all about writing tickets, he isn't REALLY trying to help save lives. I need to make my own country so we can all drive without seatbelts, drive as fast as we want, and live our lives WITHOUT ANY government controls.................... But I'll be danged if that govt isn't there when I WANT them to be!!! Yeah! Like not being able to road hunt in the burbs where game is sooooooooo abundant.
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Post by JohnSmiles on May 7, 2007 21:45:25 GMT -5
...........Which still means nothing, as the statistics do not in any way allow for the total number of people who wear versus people who do not. For, if more people do NOT wear belts than do, there will of course be a larger number of people killed NOT wearing belts. The key would be to factor in the true ratio of those who do wear vs. those who do not. I am just guessing here, but I bet more of us drive without, whether by choice or simple forgetfullness, than those who drive with. Bad guess... 74 to 90 percent of motorists wear seat belts…. The 2006 seat belt survey found the following: Use in the West has achieved the 90 percent milestone, increasing from 85 percent in 2005. This increase was statistically significant. Use rates continue to be higher where laws are stronger. States in which motorists can be stopped solely for belt nonuse had a combined use rate of 85 percent in 2006, compared to 74 percent in other States. www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/RNotes/2006/810677.pdfThere are lots of other good seat belt data out there that proves seat belts save lives, John. You're good at digging up data. Look for yourself and see. So, where it is also legal to pull you over JUST for not wearing( which we were all promised would NEVER happen, btw) the rate is much higher. Ok, it was just a guess Woody. I stated that. I drive for a living, and see tons of people driving without every day. And why in the world would I dig up any more data than you supplied yourself. All the data you gave shows only marginal safety value. 5:4, with 1 not provable, proves it PROBABLY saves more lives than it costs. But, and this is the important part, ONLY BY A VERY SLIM MARGIN. Just a though. Do those of you who are so adamantly opposed to the law tell your kids not to buckle up? No, you miss the point. No one is telling or suggesting anyone NOT buckle up. The problem is that there should not be a law REQUIRING it, as the studies show only a slightly better survival rate wearing vs NOT wearing one. You know what really honks me off? I get in my truck this morning, buckle up.....as always.... Get out on the interstate and there is a SPEED LIMIT! Can you IMAGINE the gall of the gubment trying to tell me that I can't drive as fast as I want! Gesh, the nerve of that mean old Uncle Sam trying to regulate everything I do. Dang him to heck! I know it's all about writing tickets, he isn't REALLY trying to help save lives. I need to make my own country so we can all drive without seatbelts, drive as fast as we want, and live our lives WITHOUT ANY government controls.................... But I'll be danged if that govt isn't there when I WANT them to be!!! Know what really honks me off? People like you. People who think they are being all funny, cute and smart at the same time, when all they are doing is being as rude as possible. And doing it on a more than just the rare occasion. People CAN see it differently than you and still manage to maintain a 3 digit IQ chuckles. No one is claiming we should have no rules here, all your drama aside. Some are debating the right and purpose of A PARTICULAR law. I am not calling anyone sissies or wimps for wearing one. Nor am I trying to say it is stupid to do so. Please do not continually insist I am an idiot for not agreeing with you, as it is getting old. Especially when wearing one would have already KILLED me twice. And I have only been in 2 serious accidents. The law is unconstitutional. Period.
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Post by tmarsh83 on May 8, 2007 6:46:57 GMT -5
A common misconception in the United States is that people’s rights come from the Constitution. Without the Constitution, it is believed, people wouldn’t have such rights as freedom of expression and religion. People should be grateful to the Founding Fathers, it is said, for establishing the vehicle by which people could have such rights as life, liberty, and property.
A careful reading of the U.S. Constitution reveals that it does not grant any rights to anyone. Instead, while setting up the federal government, the document (including the first ten amendments) also expressly prohibits the government from interfering with various aspects of human freedom.
It is also the charge of the government to protect it's people. The government has 100% right, and duty to pass laws that it belives are in the best interest of the people, without infringing upon any right, or passage to human freedom. This is a fine line. It is a line that is crossed and re-crossed on a daily basis.
To say this law is unconstituional, might be a bit of a stretch. The government, acting within the confines of their duty to serve, has made it a law to wear a seatbelt for the protection of its people, regardless of how slim the numbers may be. To you, that may just be a number, to someone else, it is a mother, a daughter, a son, a lover, a neighbor, or a friend on an internet forum.
One could argue it is actually more unconstitutional to force people to have car insurance. Wearing your seatbelt doesn't cost you a dime to comply to. Not wearing doesn't really cost much. It is much like the first amendment. Nobody is telling you can't say whatever you want, just be willing to accept the consequences of what you say.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 8, 2007 7:14:09 GMT -5
John,
You’re much better at math than that.
According to the two sites I gave you:
The people wearing seat belt/shoulder harnesses number between 74 and 90 percent. They are 41.5 percent of the fatalities.
The people NOT wearing seat belt/shoulder harnesses number between 10 and 26 percent. They are 51.6 percent of the fatalities.
Tell me again about – “All the data you gave shows only marginal safety value. 5:4, with 1 not provable, proves it PROBABLY saves more lives than it costs. But, and this is the important part, ONLY BY A VERY SLIM MARGIN.”
This does not compute….
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Post by bsutravis on May 8, 2007 7:16:14 GMT -5
Know what really honks me off? People like you. Sorry you feel that way. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by JohnSmiles on May 8, 2007 9:02:04 GMT -5
John, You’re much better at math than that. According to the two sites I gave you: The people wearing seat belt/shoulder harnesses number between 74 and 90 percent. They are 41.5 percent of the fatalities. The people NOT wearing seat belt/shoulder harnesses number between 10 and 26 percent. They are 51.6 percent of the fatalities. Tell me again about – “All the data you gave shows only marginal safety value. 5:4, with 1 not provable, proves it PROBABLY saves more lives than it costs. But, and this is the important part, ONLY BY A VERY SLIM MARGIN.” This does not compute….41% vs 51%, would be 41:51, with 10 unknown. Simplified, that is 4:5, with 1 unproven. What part of that is incorrect? Now, the data for who is actually wearing them and who is not. I did not come right out and say it, but I ain't buying it. I am on the road every day, and I will go by what I see with my own eyes. And that is contradictory to what is claimed. Which is impossible of course. Everyone knows information concerning PCR's, crime, guns and a growing police state are never 'slanted' . . . Here is an interesting read: tinyurl.com/ypdxyk
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Post by trapperdave on May 8, 2007 9:18:00 GMT -5
if the government wants to save lives and protect us from injury they should pass a law requiring us to have padded bathrooms dont remember the exact numbers but you are several THOUSAND times more likely to be hurt there than driving without a seqtbelt or riding without a helmet............Dang government and all these stupid laws, how many we have on the books now? They could all be covered by the ten commandments!!
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Post by JohnSmiles on May 8, 2007 10:28:43 GMT -5
Know what really honks me off? People like you. Sorry you feel that way. ;D ;D ;D No, you aren't. That is exactly the response you were after. Now, please explain where you jump from this: I agree that it should be up to the individual..... However, it doesn't take too many instances of seeing a person hanging halfway out of a windshield with their heads ripped into shreds to make even the most hard-headed anti-seatbealt wearer to at least think about buckling up for their families sake....... To this: You know what really honks me off? I get in my truck this morning, buckle up.....as always.... Get out on the interstate and there is a SPEED LIMIT! Can you IMAGINE the gall of the gubment trying to tell me that I can't drive as fast as I want! Gesh, the nerve of that mean old Uncle Sam trying to regulate everything I do. Dang him to heck! I know it's all about writing tickets, he isn't REALLY trying to help save lives. I need to make my own country so we can all drive without seatbelts, drive as fast as we want, and live our lives WITHOUT ANY government controls.................... But I'll be danged if that govt isn't there when I WANT them to be!!! AT first you make the statement you agree it should be up to the individual, which is EXACTLY what I and several others are saying, then you go overboard with the drama in order to imply those who feel this particular law is wrong are hillbilly morons who hate even having a government. brb. My oven alarm is going off. I have 15 lbs of deer salami to take out.
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