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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 18, 2006 13:48:00 GMT -5
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 18, 2006 14:29:38 GMT -5
Compare the Indiana Chart in the previous post with the same time period in Tennessee. Keep in mind that Tennesseee allows the taking of three bucks as opposed to Indiana One Buck Restriction.
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Post by trapperdave on Mar 18, 2006 16:37:49 GMT -5
nobody I know has ever had a harvested deer checked for age, weight,rack size or anything so where do these numbers come from?
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 18, 2006 16:42:41 GMT -5
nobody I know has ever had a harvested deer checked for age, weight,rack size or anything so where do these numbers come from? According the IDNR they aged and sexed 5,073 deer at 62 check stations in 2005.
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Post by jrbhunter on Mar 18, 2006 17:32:26 GMT -5
-Apparently people you don't know Dave.
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Post by rmc on Mar 18, 2006 18:23:57 GMT -5
I wish they would have aged my Co.(Scott) this year, it was amaizing how many older class buck that were taken in pre-rut and the first week of gun season this year.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 18, 2006 19:56:27 GMT -5
CLEAN IT UP GUYS...
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 19, 2006 8:51:01 GMT -5
OK, let me expain why I posted these comparison graphs...
I saw where one member said comparing Indiana to Tennessee is "dumb".
It seems that some pro-One Buck Restriction folks want to "compare" Indiana to the "big buck states" and whine -"Why can't we be like they are"? Then they decry why we compare another state to prove our point that the age shift is happening all over this country - not just in Indiana.
The deer age shift
All hunter surveys that I have seen indicate that deer hunters are getting older with the average age going up one year every year. With that increasing age average comes more deer hunting experience AND selectivity of what we will and will not shoot..
I do believe that all states are seeing an age shift and more “trophy bucks". State records are falling and numbers of trophy bucks increasing in numerous states every year. It is not just an Indiana phenomenon on the increase of such deer.
Since this is a across the board from state to state one can assign the aging, more experienced and more selective deer hunter as a major reason. Very few amongst us, after getting a number of deer hunting years under our belt, still hunt the 1 1/2 year old bucks. I think a lot of us practice qdm in our own right by accepting a challenge to hunt a more mature buck than the year and half olds.
Keep in mind that these states all have various rules, season and bag limits, but the common thread is they are ALL experiencing an age shift.
This is spelled out rather well in comparing the state of Tennessee’s deer age graph with an age graph of our own. The trend is very, very similar. Keep in mind that Tennessee has a three-buck limit as opposed to our one-buck limit restriction trial.
As you can see Tennessee’s percentage of 2 ½+ bucks is still increasing as ours has went flat the last two years.
Tennessee has a three-buck limit and we have a one-buck limit and they are doing as well, if not better than we are in achieving an age shift in the herd.
Hunters are more educated than ever before, TV, magazines, videos, books and the internet has opened a whole new world. Not only to hunting tips and methods but also in biology and management of deer
The progress has been slow, but is accelerating pretty quickly now. To some that is still not fast enough and want to impose some sort of restrictions on all hunters. Keep in mind RESTRICTIONS means just that. We are RESTRICTING another hunter.
We need to ask ourselves is that a wise thing to do in an age of declining hunter numbers and dwindling IDNR revenues? Especially since the age shift is going in the right direction already.
I guess some are just reduced to saying data is "dumb" if it doesn't agree with what they are pushing.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 19, 2006 8:55:57 GMT -5
Here is another state where the age shift is occurring. I’ve got more… Percentage of 2 ½ year old bucks harvested in Pennsylvania Number of 2 ½ year old bucks harvest in Pennsylvania
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Post by powderfinger on Mar 19, 2006 9:17:02 GMT -5
OK, let me expain why I posted these comparison graphs... No need
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Post by solohunter on Mar 19, 2006 9:56:05 GMT -5
Man,I just wrote for 20 minutes, then the Google bar messed up. Too many variables for me to compare our state with TN or anyother state. I even try not to compare my hunting with another county. Solohunter
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Post by danf on Mar 19, 2006 10:15:38 GMT -5
I'm no statistician, but is it really an accurate measure of age, when less than 5% of the deer taken were aged at 62 check stations? That's not even one station per county. And most likely all of that aging was done on opening weekend of firearms season... I would hazard a guess that a much higher percentage of the bucks taken in early archery were 2 1/2+ years old.
I think I've said it before on another site. The only way to know the exact age structure of the deer taken is to have someone age EVERY deer at EVERY check station EVERY day of ALL of the seasons. Who knows, maybe that's what the other states do.
Woody, you know that I've graphed the buck harvest vs. P&Y book entries and B&C entries for IN. Get the numbers for the other states you are trying to compare to and we'll see how those numbers compare.
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Post by powderfinger on Mar 19, 2006 11:53:40 GMT -5
I'm no statistician, but is it really an accurate measure of age, when less than 5% of the deer taken were aged at 62 check stations? NO...its not. It's garbage. Truth is, noone really knows whats out there and whats being killed. So why dont we all just quit whining about the OBR and deal with it because it is obviously here to stay.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 19, 2006 12:42:07 GMT -5
Man,I just wrote for 20 minutes, then the Google bar messed up. Too many variables for me to compare our state with TN or anyother state. I even try not to compare my hunting with another county. Solohunter Then why do the number one proponents of the One Buck Restriction always want to compare Indiana with Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, KY , etc , etc ,etc..?
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 19, 2006 12:45:27 GMT -5
danf,
It is called representative sampling.
It is a statistically valid number or the IDNR would not use it or publish it..
This is a number that has been used as representative of the age of the herd. It has been usedBOTH by the One Buck Restriction proponents and opponents.
Personally, I do not believe that the "record books" are a valid comparison..Too many variables...
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Post by laststraw1701 on Mar 19, 2006 13:21:50 GMT -5
What year did Pennsylvania go to an antler restriction? And what year Did Mr Ault start as deer biologist? Could this be the result? I read somewhere they saww immediate results with an antler restriction.
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Post by danf on Mar 19, 2006 14:24:21 GMT -5
There's too many variables in the "books"? I don't think there's enough variables in the sampling.... I'm familiar with the representative sampling. I did learn a little bit (just enough though) in the 4 times I had to take the STAT class in college. However, I have NEVER seen or heard of a biologist at a check station any time other than opening weekend of gun season. Since the beginning of the OBR, I don't see how a good representation can be taken in just ONE weekend. My guess is that there are a LOT more 2 1/2+ year old bucks taken in early archery than what those numbers imply. Most archers gun hunt, but the reverse isn't the case. Therefore archers are more willing to pass on the younger, smaller bucks early in the season. The sampling is a good start, but that's all it is. Just a start.
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Post by solohunter on Mar 19, 2006 15:04:19 GMT -5
Then why do the number one proponents of the One Buck Restriction always want to compare Indiana with Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, KY , etc , etc ,etc..? I do not know if I can answer that, but what/how did those states get to that point we compare our hunting? Maybe some states did not need a OBR, maybe they needed more does killed(for example) What variable could be altered/controled to achieve their hunting goals? From what I have seen from my treestand I believe we needed a OBR, maybe certain areas did not. There are so many variables I have recently come to believe I cannot compare. Solohunter
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Post by hoosier on Mar 19, 2006 22:42:28 GMT -5
AHA!!! I knew it! More numbers to prove the OBR base-less.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2006 8:49:36 GMT -5
I had a deer aged by a state biologist at the Knightstown Locker about 3 years ago. He was actually training a couple students how to do it. I was checking in an old doe. I knew it was an old doe that we had been hunting for years. I had no idea that she was as old as she turned out to be though. He aged her at 9 years old. When he looked in her mouth, he called his trainees over to see it. That is the only time I have ever had one officially aged by the state.
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