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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 7, 2005 21:13:57 GMT -5
Deleted for personal attacks and profanity (name calling)
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 7, 2005 21:17:13 GMT -5
Joe ,
That is twice you have called me a "pimp" on here.
You got by with that on ISM.
You wont here.
Final warning..
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Post by steiny on Aug 7, 2005 21:50:21 GMT -5
I guess if the fact that I enjoy peace and quiet, solitude and having a hunting area pretty much to myself, chasing mostly undisturbed game is considered "selfish", then so be it. Consider me guilty as charged.
We've beat this dead horse many times Woody. Fact is, many of us just don't agree on a few items such as this. Nothing wrong with that.
I would pose a few questions, regarding why you want them added to early season: What will sudenly become better if crossbows are added ? If we suddenly had 10% more hunters, would there be adequate places to enjoy quality hunting.
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firehawk
Junior Member
ONLY IN A JEEP
Posts: 48
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Post by firehawk on Aug 7, 2005 22:11:37 GMT -5
Joe , That is twice you have called me a "pimp" on here. You got by with that on ISM. You wont here. Final warning..This is sad. It was so peaceful here. Why is it there are some who insist on trying to ruin a good thing? IMO Woody you have tolorated more than you should have. This is YOUR forum, therefore you make the rules. If someone feels you are censoring certain threads, so what. Let them pick up their toys, and go home. There was no reason for some to chime in on this thread other than to stir up the same old crap. I suppose if some are unable to debate an issue like an adult, they have to resort to name calling, and or profanity. Very childish. Sheeze...
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 7, 2005 22:18:22 GMT -5
I guess if the fact that I enjoy peace and quiet, solitude and having a hunting area pretty much to myself, chasing mostly undisturbed game is considered "selfish", then so be it. Consider me guilty as charged. WW- Bowhunting by it's nature is peace and quiet. Even when I bowhunted with a gang of 10 or 12 every weekend and evenings when it came time to actually hunt it was all solitary. I do not believe that we will have the overwhelming numbers of hunters clamoring to hunt with a crossbow. See the numbers on Georgia. We will grow the numbers but not to the "the sky is falling" forecast by people that want to keep crossbow out of the early season. BUT - the numbers of hunters is decreasing all over. If we do not grow then hunting will die. The crossbow has proven itself as a great recruitment tool and just as importantly, a great RETENTION TOOL. Older bowhunters are getting back into the game in the states that have now legalized them. I see that as a WIN-WIN.. WW- Yes, we have. It gets old and I really didn’t want to participate in this one. It was started in the Crossbow Forum and rather than stifle debate I moved it here. I won't censor anything except profanities and name calling. WW- No there isn't anything wrong with that at all. It would be a dull world if we all agreed on everything. This controversial subject (along with some others) will raise its head every now and then. We can discuss them AGAIN and hash over teh same old same old until the cows come home. Very few, if any, will change their minds. I do expect a civil debate without profanities, attempted character assassination and name-calling. I appreciate your civility in this discourse... WW- see my answer above on recruiting and retention. WW- Since 93% of the hunting grounds in Indiana are privately owned that would be a call by those individuals as to what "quality hunting" they want on their ground. Just because the IDNR would legalize crossbows does not mean that the private landowner would have to let anyone use them on their ground. As with any other IDNR rule the landowners can decide what they will allow on their ground within the confines of the law. In this case the IDNR would be saying that it is OK to hunt with crossbows IF that what the landowners wanted to do. The IDNR is way lenient by allowing landowners to manage the deer herds on their places. The parameters are set very, very wide.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 7, 2005 22:37:08 GMT -5
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Post by jdmiller on Aug 7, 2005 23:16:49 GMT -5
There are good people on both sides of this issue . We all have opinions that we believe strongly in . Our statements are probably not going to change anyones position on this subject . However I think when you post personal attacks a line must be drawn . On every forum there are a few that try to make life miserable for others .
Woody this site is steadily growing and your rules are not hard to follow . I appreciate your time your putting into this and your effort to keep discussions civil....Thanks.
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 8, 2005 18:02:11 GMT -5
ahh Woody:
You kill the message over one word...........
Glad to see you censor.............LMAO!!!
This is too good..........
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 8, 2005 18:24:11 GMT -5
Give me an accebtable word for selling out the archers in Indiana?
We had a DNR director who did it and was FIRED for it.
But you wont respond to it will you?
Mr Macklin was fired for making a deal with the crossbow manufacturers after they had lost their legislation to move crossbow into the archery season. This was against the wishes of SPORTSMEN and our DEER BIOLOGIST!
The move was both unethical and illegal, today it still stands as such but is ignored.
CROSSBOW does not meet the requirements of archery equipment , according to Indiana rules.
Your turn Woody............. delete this post, or spin it as you wish.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 8, 2005 18:47:09 GMT -5
Give me an accebtable word for selling out the archers in Indiana? WW - There is no "acceptable word" when it is not true. WW- Ancient history, but the crossbow manufacturers were wrong. I've said that at least a dozen times in the past. What more can I say? NOW - Why do you think it was OK for the bowhunters in KY to do that very same thing that you are deriding the crossbow manufacturers for doing? The crossbow manufacturers abused the system and so did the bowhunters down there. But that was OK by you because it was in your favor. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that stance? WW- It meets all the requirements for all hunting in Indiana except deer in early archery season and firearms season. That too is subject to change..
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 8, 2005 18:52:50 GMT -5
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Post by steiny on Aug 8, 2005 19:56:05 GMT -5
My contention has always been that the crossbow is an easier weapon to learn, use and shoot accurately compared to a compound, recurve or stick bow.
Talked to a good friend from Missouri today. He had surgey on his shoulder last fall, had to sit out of archery season, and got a handicap permit for this fall. His choices were; crossbow, skip the archery season, or possibly blow his shoulder out real bad, per his doctor.
He got a new Excalibur, recurve crossbow, has been shooting it last couple weeks and was giving me the report. He say's at 10, 20 & 30 yards you can't miss. Putting them in a Skoal can size target every shot at 30 yards. At 40 & 50 yards, pretty darned deadly too, if you take a rest, you can drill them right in there every shot too.
I asked him how it stacked up to a modern compound in accuracy and he replied .... No contest, they aren't even in the same league. He say's only the very best target archers can get that kind of accuracy, and they have years of practice and shoot daily. He's doing this with a crossbow in two weeks use.
Asked if he thought they should be allowed as a general archery weapon and he said .... No way, you need tougher rules, because a crossbow is somewhere between a gun and a normal vertical bow.
This is not from a crossbow hater. This is from a man that has recently been forced to use one. Take it for what it's worth, but they aint an "or equal" to a compound bow.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 8, 2005 20:02:26 GMT -5
Question Steiny..
Are the shots he is taking from a rest?
If so the crossbow will beat a compound any day of the wekk.
Offhand is a different matter. No crossbower can even come close to getting top scores in any archery contest - indoors or out (3D) where they shoot the same targets.
If you friend is shooting these shots off hand he needs to turn pro right away as he would be the next worlds champion for many years to come..
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 8, 2005 21:00:11 GMT -5
Dang the REAL truth hurts.....................lol.
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Post by jdmiller on Aug 8, 2005 21:29:21 GMT -5
Well lets see ..... The crossbow is more accurate ....even at 50 yds ..... easier to master ..... definitely has more advantages over compounds . Sounds like the perfect piece of archery equipment to me . If more people used them I bet the mortality rate of deer dying from less than perfect bow shots would decline .
I know some wont admit it but the majority of bowhunters pick up their weapon a few weeks before season , sling a few arrows and their set . They dont know how to tune their equipment and let one go at the first deer that comes by . I bet everone on here knows what I'm talking about and if you bowhunted long enough I bet everyone has made that less than perfect shot or never recovered a deer that they shot .
That being said ....... why not let those individuals have a choice of weapon . If it all what you say ... how can those advantages be that terrible .
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 8, 2005 22:15:51 GMT -5
WW said:
""This controversial subject (along with some others) will raise its head every now and then. We can discuss them AGAIN and hash over teh same old same old until the cows come home. Very few, if any, will change their minds. I do expect a civil debate without profanities, attempted character assassination and name-calling.""
I disagree Woody,
I think debate is good, and it is good to debate and discuss current issues that affect us.
As an example, the OBR.
I was originally against it....after several years of discussion I do see a benefit in having it now....but not for "antler" reasons.
First, as JB has said, no one "really" needs more than one antlered buck per season. In the "old days" I think we got that extra buck because we were "also" archery hunters...and we needed the extra incentive to pick up archery......an extra buck was the recepie.
Now days we can just add extra options during the under-utilized portions of the deer season...(Early & Late)...because we now have the deer numbers we need, it's not a concern that too many antlerless deer will be killed. So now, Why pay with that extra buck opportunity.....just give the hunter extra options and make him pick the ONE BUCK he wants.
Kentucky has been VERY successfull with this approach!!!!!!
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 8, 2005 22:35:01 GMT -5
Well lets see ..... The crossbow is more accurate ....even at 50 yds ..... easier to master ..... definitely has more advantages over compounds . Sounds like the perfect piece of archery equipment to me . If more people used them I bet the mortality rate of deer dying from less than perfect bow shots would decline . I know some wont admit it but the majority of bowhunters pick up their weapon a few weeks before season , sling a few arrows and their set . They dont know how to tune their equipment and let one go at the first deer that comes by . I bet everone on here knows what I'm talking about and if you bowhunted long enough I bet everyone has made that less than perfect shot or never recovered a deer that they shot . That being said ....... why not let those individuals have a choice of weapon . If it all what you say ... how can those advantages be that terrible . I agree 150%!!!! Why in the world would you not want a fella out their with the piece of archery gear they are the best at??? What is wrong with pin point accuracy? What about the folks that never seem to master the compound bow? ? I can ASSURE you that the majority of folks who hunt with archery DON"T shoot year round. We were just advised that 59% of all deer hunters in Indiana shoot/hunt archery....where are they at in the off season? What are they useing for arrows??? With THAT many folks shooting ALL the time....why can't a "archery shop" make it in Indianapolis....the MOST populated area in the entire state!!!!!! Ask the big box retailers when their archery sales pick up? ALL of these archery hunters SHOOTING year round, but they are not wearing out and losing arrows, strings and all the other archery stuff that you go through when you "really shoot archery year round. Remember, not enough demand for year round archery services in the largest city in the state....no range, indoor or outdoor, no "pro shop", no 3-D course within 40 miles of the city limits....NOTHING! Yet 59% of the folks who deer hunt shoot/hunt archery gear and THEY ALL practice year round...lol lol lol
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 9, 2005 11:16:46 GMT -5
Steiny, Was your buddy a pretty good shot with "regular bows" too? Everyone has their opinions BUT..... We also NOW have FACTS! Georgia, Alabama, Ohio, Arkansas, and several others are saying that success rates between crossbow and compound bow deer hunters run about the same.....in some states the compound folks seem to have better harvest success rates and in others the crossbow nudges the compound. Standing on an un-obstructed range and your target NOT moving or LIVING will help the shooter perform. Now throw in all the things that affect a archery deer hunter, like wind, range estimates, scent, small twigs and the deer jumping the string and it's a WHOLE different story. Is the crossbow easier to learn to shoot? Yep! Will it make your success rate go up???.....Facts are showing that it will NOT!!!! If a person....ANY PERSON... is only going to devote a minimum amount of time learning ANY piece of archery equipment....(and we all have that right because there is no practice police)....what "form" of archery would you personaly rather see that person deer hunt with? ??......My prefrence would be the crossbow.....chances for a more humane kill are far greater with a crossbow, if the hunter is not willing to spend the time on the range.....And like I said, there is no "range time" requirement for anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 9, 2005 16:44:17 GMT -5
Let's speak the truth:
Wounding rates with CONVENTIONAL ARCHERY is 7%, exactly the same as a firearm. the study was done by Leanord La Rue.
Post truths, we already have enough folks after our butts. I saw a survey that said for every deer taken by an archer one was wounded and suffered a slow miserable death. if that is the case where is the 20,000 plus deer on opening day of gun season in Indiana?
Camby keep up the seperating of hunters in Indiana, we need folks like you. You'll do more damage with your assinine comments that the opposition ever can.
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 9, 2005 21:46:15 GMT -5
Let's speak the truth: Wounding rates with CONVENTIONAL ARCHERY is 7%, exactly the same as a firearm. the study was done by Leanord La Rue. Post truths, we already have enough folks after our butts. I saw a survey that said for every deer taken by an archer one was wounded and suffered a slow miserable death. if that is the case where is the 20,000 plus deer on opening day of gun season in Indiana? Camby keep up the seperating of hunters in Indiana, we need folks like you. You'll do more damage with your assinine comments that the opposition ever can. I did post the truth!!!!!!! What part is not the truth? Did I post a "wounding rate" higher than 7% It's ALSO the truth that there is NO practice police!!!! It's you that is saying the the crossbow is too easy to use....yet wounding rates with "regular bows" is only 7%... ?? 7%.....? That would mean that out of every 100 deer shot with "regular bows"....only 7 are not recovered??? You had better go back and read the posts on these sites, the "non-recovery" of wounded deer is a HECK of alot higher than that with the folks who pst on these sites. Anyways PLEASE make up your mind.....in one sentence you are saying how difficult "regular bows" are to learn to shoot.....then you say that only 7 out of every 100 deer hit with "regular bows" are non-lethal. Is 7 a good number? ...Would it not be better if it were 6...5...4? What do you think the "wounding rate"would be with crossbows? I bet Ohio has that info!!! But you do have me figured out.....I do in fact have a problem with ALL organized ANTI-HUNTING groups....so don't take it personal!
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