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Post by onebentarrow on Dec 22, 2019 19:34:09 GMT -5
Watch "Lead vs Copper Bullets" on YouTube youtu.be/KaFYUtgXWZYThis is the BEST vedio and information on lead contamination of meat I have ever seen. I was floored by the results (especially the xrays of shot deer) I have shot copper solids in my muzzelloader for years but will switch all hunting amo to copper. I will practice with lead but not hunt something I am going to consume with lead. I am not influenced by most things but this vedio is changing the way (amo) I hunt. Period! Onebentarrow
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Post by firstwd on Dec 22, 2019 20:06:54 GMT -5
Interesting. Especially since the copper we add to our powdered metal products is the second most regulated material in the building.
But, you may have found a reason for the rifle rule to die. Even though the video is from 2011 and California.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 27, 2019 9:28:00 GMT -5
Incredible humans have all lived so long from using lead bullets for centuries.
Now, having said that, I am a big proponent of monolithic bullets just because I prefer to know that I am going to get adequate penetration to get two holes in a deer even when hit at close range because of the lead-core bullets' reputation to grenade up close. Or not driving a lead-core bullet fast enough to grenade. For me it has nothing to do with the fear of lead fragments in the meat.
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Post by stevein on Dec 27, 2019 10:22:07 GMT -5
I think the lead contamination fear in humans is way overblown. We do not digest our food like birds do by grinding it to a pulp in gizzards. Most pieces of injested lead will pass through whole. I had a buddy that took a large load of 7-1/2 shot throughout his upper torso, face and arms. The doctors left almost all of it in place because they said it would cause more damage to get it out than to leave them in place. If it bothers you go ahead and switch.
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Post by esshup on Dec 27, 2019 12:04:54 GMT -5
I have to bring their testing methods into question. Shooting a 30-06 into water at 50 yds is not representative of shooting a game animal at 50 yds. The test and video was made in California and I wonder why? It was made prior to the state banning lead projectiles for ALL types of hunting.
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Post by firstwd on Dec 27, 2019 13:37:57 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the high energy dump bullets anyway. I'd much prefer a complete passthrough and two drain holes than a fragmenting energy dump to shock an animal to death.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 27, 2019 14:12:56 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the high energy dump bullets anyway. I'd much prefer a complete passthrough and two drain holes than a fragmenting energy dump to shock an animal to death. Unless we are talking VMax-designed bullets for varmints. Then I don't mind not having an exit. Never really understood the Berger philosophy for deer hunting. Guess they are after the antlers more than the meat and don't care if they lose a front quarter to being bloodshot. Or else they are ok with sacrificing that meat in turn for not having to track the deer 30-50 yards. I could see the appeal to that if I were a property line hugger that did not have permission to retrieve deer from the neighboring property. So far (knock on wood) I have had zero bloodshot meat shooting the monolithic bullets even on a 2900+ fps quartering away hit at about 40 yards a few years ago using a 130 grain TSX out of a .308 Win. And FWIW, that was my only deer that did not drop at the shot when using monolithics. It managed to stumble about 15 yards into the creek after the shot. So far I have not hit the spines or high shoulder shots with the monolithics either, normal "right behind the leg" shots into the vitals.
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Post by firstwd on Dec 27, 2019 14:19:27 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the high energy dump bullets anyway. I'd much prefer a complete passthrough and two drain holes than a fragmenting energy dump to shock an animal to death. Unless we are talking VMax-designed bullets for varmints. Then I don't mind not having an exit. Never really understood the Berger philosophy for deer hunting. Guess they are after the antlers more than the meat and don't care if they lose a front quarter to being bloodshot. Or else they are ok with sacrificing that meat in turn for not having to track the deer 30-50 yards. I could see the appeal to that if I were a property line hugger that did not have permission to retrieve deer from the neighboring property. So far (knock on wood) I have had zero bloodshot meat shooting the monolithic bullets even on a 2900+ fps quartering away hit at about 40 yards a few years ago using a 130 grain TSX out of a .308 Win. And FWIW, that was my only deer that did not drop at the shot when using monolithics. It managed to stumble about 15 yards into the creek after the shot. So far I have not hit the spines or high shoulder shots with the monolithics either, normal "right behind the leg" shots into the vitals. I do use Vmax bullets in my 17HMR for squirrels, but I'm a really twisted individual and headshots are better than movie special effects.
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Post by schall53 on Dec 27, 2019 17:12:58 GMT -5
Unless we are talking VMax-designed bullets for varmints. Then I don't mind not having an exit. Never really understood the Berger philosophy for deer hunting. Guess they are after the antlers more than the meat and don't care if they lose a front quarter to being bloodshot. Or else they are ok with sacrificing that meat in turn for not having to track the deer 30-50 yards. I could see the appeal to that if I were a property line hugger that did not have permission to retrieve deer from the neighboring property. So far (knock on wood) I have had zero bloodshot meat shooting the monolithic bullets even on a 2900+ fps quartering away hit at about 40 yards a few years ago using a 130 grain TSX out of a .308 Win. And FWIW, that was my only deer that did not drop at the shot when using monolithics. It managed to stumble about 15 yards into the creek after the shot. So far I have not hit the spines or high shoulder shots with the monolithics either, normal "right behind the leg" shots into the vitals. I do use Vmax bullets in my 17HMR for squirrels, but I'm a really twisted individual and headshots are better than movie special effects. You should see what one out of a 22-250 does to a prairie dog.
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Post by boman on Dec 27, 2019 18:53:26 GMT -5
Nothing new here, We've been federally mandated steel shot for migratory birds/waterfowl for a long time and I get it with birds and the way they digest their food. As far as humans, I've consumed my share of lead shot eating small game since I was a kid and I'm still going strong at 70. However, I am glad we don't have Condors around here though--LOL I like copper/lead bullets---The "premium" ones. There is a case for a monolithic bullet with a "Texas heart shot" (in the arse) to get penetration but after that premium lead/copper is more than necessary on an Indiana whitetail. My most accurate handload is with a TTSP but I won't shoot them because of the guaranteed passthru with 99.9% of shots. Hydorstatic shock to tissue is what does the most damage, not the bullet channel with a modern centerfire and I want the bullet to expend as much energy as possible while in the deer. Ideal bullet performance is lodged under the hide on opposite side as far as 100% energy dissipation. Now all that said, It's kinda moot because every centerfire round legal in Indiana carries more than enough energy to kill a whitetail at reasonable range if SHOT PLACEMENT is correct.
Steve
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Post by esshup on Dec 27, 2019 20:09:58 GMT -5
bowman, I can't argue with that logic. Here's why I switched to Barnes bullets when whitetail deer hunting in the woods. (I've used a number of different calibers since switching.)
.257 Weatherby Mag. Nosler Ballistic Tip 115 grain. Doe at 80 yds., about 20' below me on the side of the hill. Dbl lung shot, IIRC I hit a rib on the way in. About 2" snow on the ground. I watched her run flat out for about 100 yds and pile up. Just for the heck of it I walked to where she was hit and followed the footprints. A little bit of hair at the point of impact, no blood until the last 10 yds. Bullet didn't exit, the majority of the blood stayed inside due to the high entry hole.
I switched to a Barnes TSX in that gun and had no problems following a blood trail because the bullets exit. I have since switched to using a .243 (85 grain "TSX" bullet @ 3250-3300 fps) for the majority of my woods deer hunting. I've shot deer from 20 yds to almost 200 yds and have never found a Barnes bullet. I even had one g the whole length of a 6 point buck at 25 yds. It was messy but a hose fixed that.
I've used a 7mm 180g Berger "hunting" VLD bullet and poked a cow elk with it. Behind the shoulder, right under the spine, and the shock was great enough to drop it in it's tracks. It lifted it's head twice but didn't take a step. Not much more meat damage than any other bullet.
I shot a deer this year with the Barnes in the .243. Broadside, and gave the deer to my nephew. He said the heart was just not there and one shoulder was half bloodshot.
Dad years ago in Wi. shot a deer with a 150g Silvertip from his 30-06. He wouldn't use them again, said the opposite shoulder just wasn't there. No idea how far the deer was away from him.
Lately I'm shooting more and more from a good solid rest when deer hunting, and I know exactly what the trajectory of the bullet is. Not much wasted meat when you head shoot them or shoot them in the upper part of the neck. If the deer aren't within 65 or so yards and calm, I'll try to shoot them thru the lungs right below the spine. Little meat damage that way. If they won't stop walking or are jittery, then I'll aim for the heart or right above it, trying to booger up as little meat as possible.
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Post by harmonist34 on Dec 28, 2019 10:19:01 GMT -5
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Post by esshup on Dec 28, 2019 11:38:17 GMT -5
I've used the Barnes .45 caliber (.451" - .452") X bullets with the MMP or Harvestor sabot that fits the bore the best. Either the MMP Orange Sabot, MMP HPH or their regular black sabots mmpsabots.com/The Barnes TSX bullets should work too, although you might have to knurl the shank between 2 files so it doesn't spin inside the sabot.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 30, 2019 8:08:07 GMT -5
I do use Vmax bullets in my 17HMR for squirrels, but I'm a really twisted individual and headshots are better than movie special effects. You should see what one out of a 22-250 does to a prairie dog. I do know a 55 grain Nosler BT out of a .243 Win will blow a prairie dog completely out of its hide. Pretty spectacular watching the hide flutter back to the ground.
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Post by INhuntin on Jan 1, 2020 16:44:17 GMT -5
First of all I'm very careful when I choose a shot placement. I alway take a broadside shot in the lower chest cavity, resulting in a complete pass through. On top of that I process my own deer so I know every bit of shot meat stays on the carcass. And unlike a commercial processor the only meat going into the grinder is from my deer while other processors dump meat from all the deer into the same batch of grind. So from a commercial processor you are getting part of Bubba's deer he shot last week (he had to show it to the work buddies)or the road kill the non-hunting neighbour took in or parts of the lazy hunter that says field dressing is too much work, I'll pay to get it done. All that meat gets ground at one time & all of it is mixed together. Taking extreme care of your taken game is a big part of being a hunter.
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