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Post by omegahunter on Dec 13, 2016 13:18:11 GMT -5
Can you actually use blackpowder in a Smokeless gun? Black powder and any of the substitutes. There are also plenty of smokeless powder options, but not all smokeless powder is safe to use in a smokeless muzzleloader.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 13, 2016 13:20:52 GMT -5
Colorado, and other states, do not allow smokeless.....that is one reason a person might want to shoot black or substitute out of one. Same for Michigan, IIRC: You can use smokeless to shoot, but if hunting, it has to be black powder or substitute. There certainly are reasons to shoot something other than smokeless from a smokeless muzzleloader. Some just don't think about it because they don't have those constraints in their state.
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Post by onebentarrow on Dec 13, 2016 16:25:50 GMT -5
What exactly is a smokeless muzzleloader? You shove Chantix down the barrel instead of powder.... A smokeless muzzeloader is a muzzeloadung fire arm that uses powders that can be used in rifle cartriges. The term smokeless is from the fact that these powders do not leave a cloud of smoke like black powder does
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 13, 2016 18:34:24 GMT -5
What exactly is a smokeless muzzleloader? You shove Chantix down the barrel instead of powder.... Skoal Bandits. No measuring!
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 22:56:54 GMT -5
Does Savage still offer these smokeless powder muzzle loader currently? If not why, as it seems they would be good sellers instead of the old Black powder/pyrodex/triple "7" powders only M/L's. You are correct, but no, they don't. They didn't advertise them much, but there is a HUGE following with them because of their performance. Since Savage was sold, they are no longer even making them in the custom shop. They used to do one run per year after they stopped carrying inventory, but that was a number of years ago. The only reason I use a HPR now that it's legal is because mine is about 4-5 pounds lighter. That's it. Since I started shooting a Savage, I stopped using a slug gun, and will only use my slug gun for state park hunts where shots are less than 150 yards or so.
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:00:47 GMT -5
I had this nice long explanation typed up but it just dissappeared, so now the short verson. No and unjust lawsuits for blowup that were proven to be caused by owners mistakes. There are numerous guns that can be converted to a smokeless muzzeloader. Go to dougs or hanks message boards and do a bunch of reading, there is a BUNCH of great info there. Thanks for the information. Sounds like these smokeless powder M/L's are dangerous. They are dangerous to deer for sure. If a person can't weigh out powder and follow directions, then yes, they are dangerous. But anything to a person like that is dangerous. I've heard of people shooting the bullet AND their ramrod, and other than getting the snot kicked out of them by the gun and maybe bulging the barrel, nothing bad has happened. What would happen to a regular muzzleloader if you put a double max charge in it?
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:31:23 GMT -5
I don't know how easily a ML-I can be converted over to .45 Cal, but an ML-II is easy to convert. Using a .45, and by buying the right bullets, powder and practicing, it can be a 400 yard muzzleloader in the right hands, and a 300 yd muzzleloader easily. I saw a brief mention of .45 conversions the other day on Doug's site when I was browsing. I was wondering about it when I saw it. If the barrel is .45 caliber, do you use a smaller bullet in a sabot? Obviously you aren't cramming a standard .45 bullet down the barrel. As I mentioned in the other thread, I only have use for one muzzleloader (THE HORROR! LOL!), so I'll be selling my T/C Omega Z5 and accessories if I buy this Savage. Proboards don't allow firearms to be listed for sale in their classifieds, so you guys know how to reach me. Lol! I'm supposed to look at the Savage tomorrow. I have a .50 Cal Savage ML-I (the first generation that uses modules to hold the primer) that shoots .452" or .458" bullets with the correct sabot I also have a stainless .50 cal that was converted to .45 cal and I shoot .40 caliber bullets in it. With the .50, I usually shoot 100 yard groups that are 3/4" C-C and with the .45, the groups are about the same size, but out at 300 yds they are about 2 1/2"-3" depending how well I can read the wind.
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:33:23 GMT -5
What exactly is a smokeless muzzleloader? It uses regular powder that you would load brass cartridges with, instead of black powder or one of its substitutes. It generates too much pressure to be used in a standard muzzleloader, so it can only be used in those that are designed for it. Using smokeless powder in a regular muzzleloader would have disastrous results. BUT, you can also use regular black powder or their substitutes in the Savage if you need to because of regulations. Some states do not allow smokeless muzzleloaders.
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:40:04 GMT -5
I think many of us are in the same boat as you m4 .kudos to you for taking care of business. I'm supporting a family of 6 on $14.50 / hr, my wife stays home with the little one. I bought my first one a long time ago. I refused to get a muzzleloader that you had to clean with soap and water, so I kept my eyes open for one. I went to a gunshop "gone out of business" auction and walked out the door with one for $250. I bought another one (ML-I) NIB a few years later for the same price. While you may not find them now for that price, keep looking, especially around tax time and early summer when the demand is lower. I paid quite a bit more for the stainless ML-II that I have, and that is the one that I converted to .45 cal. The conversion is easy if you know what end of a wrench to hold. You can do it yourself.
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:42:35 GMT -5
Personally I would skip the Savage and go with an Encore frame and a custom barrel for the Encore in the caliber of your choosing. IMHO, Savage smokeless ML's, while being a well made rifle as is typical with Savage, are just too darn finicky. Couple of screws that have to be just so so or accuracy goes out the window. I went the Encore route and with the help of a good friend who had been down the smokeless road before it was a pretty painless process getting to the point of having a consistent MOA ML rifle. Doug's message board has be mentioned and while I have not been to the site in some time now it was always THE place to go for info on a smokeless ML rifle. Which two screws are you talking about? If they are the screws that hold the action into the stock, they aren't any more finicky than any other center fire rifle. Torque the screws down correctly and you are good to go.
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:45:43 GMT -5
If youre not hearing much about them you arent listening in the right places .... go to dougs message boards. There are guys on this site that have them too, me included. I have 2 of them. I've been there at that site and was even a member. I remember when this issue of a Savage blowing-up on Toby Bridges, an outdoor writer and muzzle loader expert. Got a Friend that knows him personally. As for me: I believe I'll just stick to my T/C .50 cal. Black Diamond using Triple "7" FFG powder. Cleaning the T/C is no issue and one has to clean a M/L that uses smokeless powder too. I simply first run a patch moisten with HOT water, wiping out residue, then dry patch, then a patch with gun oil. On average I use a Muzzle Loader around 5-times per season. I like using my .308 or .270 much better. Two questions that have never been answered (to my knowledge) about that incident is 1) How was he not injured when the gun let go and 2) why were there copper streaks in the barrel on the rifling right where it let go? That was right after he was let go by Savage from being their spokesperson, correct?
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Post by esshup on Dec 13, 2016 23:49:02 GMT -5
Colorado, and other states, do not allow smokeless.....that is one reason a person might want to shoot black or substitute out of one. And Colorado requires you to use iron sights and no sabots too. I could not use my Savage Muzzleloader during a center fire rifle cow elk season without going iron sights, BP and full bore bullet.
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Post by deadeer on Dec 14, 2016 0:35:09 GMT -5
I think esshup has some pretty valid points. These guns are pretty unique in their design. Hot rodding them is only human nature, as far as I can see. I, for one, read and follow others leads. I let them do the legwork and expense, and reap the rewards. But, I follow them in their journey and learn as we go.
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Post by stevein on Dec 14, 2016 10:34:12 GMT -5
I look at the smokeless ML's like a very high performance sports car. They do it all but really are not for everyone. I will not own one but if you want to that is fine by me. I like the looks and feel of my side locks and don't mind cleaning them. For the guy that is willing to do his homework and gain the knowledge required the rewards are great. But if you want to take shortcuts you should be aware of the hazards.
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Post by stevein on Dec 14, 2016 10:37:34 GMT -5
Colorado, and other states, do not allow smokeless.....that is one reason a person might want to shoot black or substitute out of one. And Colorado requires you to use iron sights and no sabots too. I could not use my Savage Muzzleloader during a center fire rifle cow elk season without going iron sights, BP and full bore bullet. I thought it was only for the muzzle loading season they limited the ML you can use.
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Post by medic22 on Dec 14, 2016 10:44:26 GMT -5
Any reason to not do a conversion on say a 45-70 handi rifle as opposed to buying a factory built smokeless muzzy?
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Post by davers on Dec 14, 2016 11:37:59 GMT -5
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 14, 2016 12:05:13 GMT -5
Any reason to not do a conversion on say a 45-70 handi rifle as opposed to buying a factory built smokeless muzzy? That or the CVA 45/70, or if you already have an Encore any of those 45/70 barrels can be fitted with a smokeless breecb plug. But there is no going back to cartridges once the breech is machined for the plug.
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Post by medic22 on Dec 14, 2016 12:08:59 GMT -5
Any reason to not do a conversion on say a 45-70 handi rifle as opposed to buying a factory built smokeless muzzy? That or the CVA 45/70, or if you already have an Encore any of those 45/70 barrels can be fitted with a smokeless breecb plug. But there is no going back to cartridges once the breech is machined for the plug. Thanks. Just a quick google search, this looks like the cheapest way to get into a smokeless muzzleloader.
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Dec 14, 2016 12:23:25 GMT -5
I'm just a bit confused about the desire to have a smokeless muzzleloader. So I understand why the powders cannot be interchanged or at least the smokeless in a smoking gun. LOL
They shoot further? Before the new rifle laws, I guess I can see the desire, but I can't see anything further than my slug gun can shoot.
I do understand the desire to use something different to make a harvest, just for the fun of it or adventure. Is this all we're talking about here?
I kind of like the smoke. I can't see after the shot, but it's kind of cool. LOL
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