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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 27, 2005 18:05:16 GMT -5
I've had discusions with some other bowhunters about shots taken at deer that appear to be high lung shots and the deer are not recovered.. Some of the folks say that they miss the lungs and the spine by passing underneath the spine and above the lungs. I say that can't happen. They say there is a "no man's land" or a void there. I know some vets and they say no there isn't. The lungs wouldn't work if there was. I'm not convinced that one can put an arrow between the top of the lungs and the spine.. Especially from an elevated position.. A deer close in and/or from a good height , such 20 feet are better, there is no way anyone could thread the needle if there even was such a thing as a "no man's land". The exit hole would have to be 4 - 5 inches lower than the entrance hole. No way is that "no man's land" (if it existed) 4 - 5 inches wide. My firm belief is that these so called "no man's land" shots are actually shots above the spinal cord. A loin shot if you will. They will bleed pretty good for a hundred yards or so and then peter out. Meat hits are like that unless the deer is pushed. OR They only get one lung from which a deer can and do recover. Here are some more examples.. Here is my idea of a "no man's land" shot..above the spine... home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Deer_Anatomy.html Other interesting pictures and drawings.. home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html www.whitetails.com/deer-organs0.jpg www.tnoutdoorsmen.com/anatomy.gif www.tnoutdoorsmen.com/killzone.htm |
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robn
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by robn on Jul 28, 2005 7:36:52 GMT -5
I too have heard this from people I consider knowledgeable and credible, but I am not sure how you would do this. One guy even told me the deer was later killed and the arrow was broken off but still in the deer and it was tight against the shoulder and just barely below the spine - I believe the guy - I just think it is a freak and very rare occurence. I really like the first picture - you can really learn a lot about shot placement by analyzing the deers anatomy.
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Post by camoham on Jul 28, 2005 7:47:15 GMT -5
nice topic........................
im not a believer of "no man's land" either.................
this especially true from an elevated stand.
i tend to think that a broadhead in these areas creates a hole which affects how the lungs operate.
*this just my personal opinion.
the front chest cavity is sealed off from the rest of the anatomy of the deer by the diaphragm. arrows/broadheads disrupt the pressure and airflow in this area and causes massive trauma. regardless of what part of the lung/heart area is hit..............the respiratory system will collapse given time.
a pass through shot definately allows this to occur quickly.
so what happens with a scenario where a pass through does not occur...................arrow comes out...................and opening "clogs" up ?.........................same principle still occurs. the "sealed" area was still broken collapsing the lungs.
*the whole concept of this is that when the cavity is "compromised"...................this part of the circulatory system fails. bottom line !
i think the before mentioned "no mans land" above this is a myth....................if youre not in the "cavity"............then your running close to the nervous system (spine)..................or other major parts of the circulatory system.
camoham
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 28, 2005 10:00:30 GMT -5
Ulmer, Dr. Randy
Bowhunter
October 01, 2000
YOU'VE PROBABLY heard about at least one bowhunter who has shot through the chest of a deer or elk and then, a few days or weeks later, has seen the same animal, apparently healthy and unaffected by the arrow. The hunter assumes his arrow passed through the "hollow place" between the spine and the lungs.
Do animals have such a hollow place? No, they do not. The lungs are passive, elastic organs that expand and contract only because they are within the sealed environment of the chest. They fill the entire chest cavity at all times.
The hollow-place myth probably has arisen because of the impossibility of seeing the lungs in their natural, sealed environment. To examine the lungs, you must open the chest, and when you do that the lungs instantly collapse to one-half their normal size, giving the impression that they occupy only a portion of the chest cavity.
If no hollow place exists, can an animal really survive an arrow through the chest.
He goes on to state that they can survive but the chances are not that good.
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Post by mbogo on Jul 28, 2005 11:16:28 GMT -5
Woody, I think your theory is probably correct, that the "no man's land" people claim to hit is above the ribcage. A deer that seems to almost be knocked down is a indication of this type of shot. However, deer have been documented to survive for long periods of time(up to years) with broadheads partially penetrating the heart or through one lung and slightly into the other. A complete pass-through virtually elimenates the possibilty of any of those freak circumstances from occurring.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 28, 2005 11:24:36 GMT -5
Double lung shot deer will ALWAYS die..
Single lung shot can and often do live to be hunted again.
Case in point - I killed a small buck many years back and when I was hosing the body cavity out the next day I noticed a big hump on the inside up against a rib bone. Protruding from that lump was what appeared to be a brown stick. Upon closer examination I saw that it was broken brown Herter's fiberglass arrow shaft. I cut the lump away and encased in it was a Zwickey Eskimo broadhead. I recognized the shaft and broadhead as one my buddy hunted with. He had shot what he thought was a doe out of the same stand the year before. We never found his "doe".
His "doe" was a button buck.
The position of the broadheads and shaft left no doubt that the arrow passed through one lung.
High country (timberline) mule deer? You'd better get a double lung shot or you'll never see them again.
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Post by jdmiller on Jul 28, 2005 16:58:27 GMT -5
Some may or may not agree with me but I think that treestand height plays somewhat of a factor in this . I know alot of guys that hunt well above 20 ft . Some just want to get as high as thy can get . I know the higher you are theres less chance of being detected but their putting such a strong shooting angle at normal archery ranges its almost a straight down shot . Then comes what I call the single lung hit . A deer can go a very long way .... I've seen it .... and that deer may never be recovered and may even survive.
If you think about it ... a hit high but a little back will get the liver . A very fast recovery if you hit this spot . Most people will reconize the "hunch" a deer makes if paunch hit and usually can be confirmed by inspecting your arrow if it passed through . A shot which caused the hind legs kick .. almost like a bee sting or the familliar tail spin indicate a very good hit with either the heart or both lungs severed . Even a hit in the hind quarter can be deadly with the kidney or femoral artery hit . Lots of blood however it may be sprayed higher than we normally look .
The single lung hit has very little reaction .... it can clog very easily and for some reason very little frothy blood . Its usually just drops... the only large amounts are when they stop and then theres not much . To the hunter you just know you put one in the boiler room . you think about it and you think about it some more . You cant locate the deer and you just reason to yourself you had to put that arrow between the spinal cord and the lungs . Hence the no mans land myth .
Thats my theory until someone prove otherwise.
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Post by cday on Jul 29, 2005 5:03:30 GMT -5
I used to think there was a area in the chest cavity if hit there you would not recover that deer. Because I had too many deer hit high in the chest and not recovered. That was until I started sharpen my own broadheads. Now even with a one lung hit he ain't going far. From test I have done I have yet to find a broadhead sharp enough for my liken out of the package, even replacement blades. Broadheads even get dull just sitting in the quiver and never used.
Also look at the blood vessel and artery network inside the lungs. The out edges of this organ only has minor vessels and arteries with the more major ones being more so closer to the center. So when a arrow hits high it is only cutting minor vessels and artries which will clot up alot faster. Being a firefighter and first responder I have seen humans shot through one lung or stabbed survive. The lung does not colaspe fully.
So I truly believe the arrow has a dull broadhead and only hitting minor vessels and artries which clot up quickly causing a no recover of the deer.
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Post by bowhunter7275 on Jul 29, 2005 9:17:27 GMT -5
We are a state deer check station and a couple of years ago we had a guy bring a deer in that actually had a broadhead protruding the roof of it's mouth.The wound had actually healed around the broadhead and was probably from the year before.This is a good testament to how animals can and will survive from an otherwise lethal wound.If that was one of us without medical treatment we are for sure dead.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 29, 2005 10:52:13 GMT -5
We are a state deer check station and a couple of years ago we had a guy bring a deer in that actually had a broadhead protruding the roof of it's mouth.The wound had actually healed around the broadhead and was probably from the year before.This is a good testament to how animals can and will survive from an otherwise lethal wound.If that was one of us without medical treatment we are for sure dead. They are TOUGH animals aren't they?? |
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