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Post by esshup on Mar 26, 2016 0:46:06 GMT -5
What people need to consider are the ballistics of a "high-powered" rifle. This is not directed at anyone here, but I've seen lots of people who think a HPR is like a laser -- the bullet keeps flying straight as an arrow for miles until it strikes something. The reality of how it actually functions is far from that notion, considering the rainbow trajectory of a bullet. We'll use a Remington 150-grain .308 Core-Lokt as an example, as it is probably the cheapest, off-the-shelf cartridge of that caliber, and sure to be the choice of bubbas who hit up Wal-Mart the night before firearms season. No one can argue that the most common zero by far for a HPR is 100 yards. With a 100-yard zero, does anyone care to guess how much that bullet has dropped at 500 yards? How about 64.5 inches? That's pretty much 5 1/2 feet. So, a hunter of average height taking a level ground, offhand shot is going to see that bullet burrow into the dirt at 500 yards. If the hunter is sitting in a ground blind, we can shorten that distance to around 375 yards. That's a far cry from shooting someone at their breakfast table a mile away. To drop a bullet into the dirt at the 1000-yard mark, the hunter would have to aim about 40 FEET high. I'd like to see a hunter on flat ground miss that high to hit someone a thousand yards away, let alone a mile. So much for Indiana being too flat for HPR's.
To be fair, just in case somebody thinks that a the .308 in the example above isn't a high powered rifle compared to what is on the market, lets take a look at a different round. I use this because I have one and I know the trajectory and ballistics.
If anyone should be concerned about a high powered rifle, what about these ballistics?
Take a .338 Lapua case. Neck it down to 7mm. Sharpen the shoulder angle and reduce the taper to the brass so that it holds roughly 10% more powder than the parent .338 Lapua case.
Stuff a high bc 180g Berger hunting VLD bullet in it. Muzzle velocity is roughly 3350 fps. If that isn't a "high powered rifle" then I don't know what is. Centerline of bore to centerline of scope is 1.75" Bullet bc is 0.775"
Sight it in for 100 yds. Now, it isn't a gun that you would shoot offhand at a deer with, but what if you did?
Using the same example as listed above, at 500 yds it has dropped 30 inches. If I was shooting it from a standing position (which I wouldn't) It hits the dirt at just shy of 650 yds, and at 1,000 yds it has dropped 178.8 inches or 14.8 feet. So, that "high powered rifle" only flies 150 more yards than a .308 before it hits the ground.
Would I be using this rifle (if legal in Indiana) anywhere where I could possibly shoot a deer at less than 300-400 yards? Don't be silly. Why when my muzzleloader will work just fine, or my .243 Winchester would also work just as well.
Would I buy a rifle like that just to hunt deer with (if it was legal) here in Indiana? Again, don't be silly. I bought it to hunt out West. Can it hit a deer at 1/2 mile? Definitely. BUT I'd bet money that a slug from a shotgun will travel farther than a projectile from that rifle once each touch the ground.
Am I scared of HPR's being legalized here in Indiana (and I live in the northern part of the state)? I am not any more afraid of them being legalized than I am of driving on any highway. IF you want to cite statistics, what is more dangerous, hunting or driving?
I think too many people haven't read Chicken Little.................
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Post by sakorifle on Mar 26, 2016 5:21:28 GMT -5
What people need to consider are the ballistics of a "high-powered" rifle. This is not directed at anyone here, but I've seen lots of people who think a HPR is like a laser -- the bullet keeps flying straight as an arrow for miles until it strikes something. The reality of how it actually functions is far from that notion, considering the rainbow trajectory of a bullet. We'll use a Remington 150-grain .308 Core-Lokt as an example, as it is probably the cheapest, off-the-shelf cartridge of that caliber, and sure to be the choice of bubbas who hit up Wal-Mart the night before firearms season. No one can argue that the most common zero by far for a HPR is 100 yards. With a 100-yard zero, does anyone care to guess how much that bullet has dropped at 500 yards? How about 64.5 inches? That's pretty much 5 1/2 feet. So, a hunter of average height taking a level ground, offhand shot is going to see that bullet burrow into the dirt at 500 yards. If the hunter is sitting in a ground blind, we can shorten that distance to around 375 yards. That's a far cry from shooting someone at their breakfast table a mile away. To drop a bullet into the dirt at the 1000-yard mark, the hunter would have to aim about 40 FEET high. I'd like to see a hunter on flat ground miss that high to hit someone a thousand yards away, let alone a mile. So much for Indiana being too flat for HPR's.
To be fair, just in case somebody thinks that a the .308 in the example above isn't a high powered rifle compared to what is on the market, lets take a look at a different round. I use this because I have one and I know the trajectory and ballistics.
If anyone should be concerned about a high powered rifle, what about these ballistics?
Take a .338 Lapua case. Neck it down to 7mm. Sharpen the shoulder angle and reduce the taper to the brass so that it holds roughly 10% more powder than the parent .338 Lapua case.
Stuff a high bc 180g Berger hunting VLD bullet in it. Muzzle velocity is roughly 3350 fps. If that isn't a "high powered rifle" then I don't know what is. Centerline of bore to centerline of scope is 1.75" Bullet bc is 0.775"
Sight it in for 100 yds. Now, it isn't a gun that you would shoot offhand at a deer with, but what if you did?
Using the same example as listed above, at 500 yds it has dropped 30 inches. If I was shooting it from a standing position (which I wouldn't) It hits the dirt at just shy of 650 yds, and at 1,000 yds it has dropped 178.8 inches or 14.8 feet. So, that "high powered rifle" only flies 150 more yards than a .308 before it hits the ground.
Would I be using this rifle (if legal in Indiana) anywhere where I could possibly shoot a deer at less than 300-400 yards? Don't be silly. Why when my muzzleloader will work just fine, or my .243 Winchester would also work just as well.
Would I buy a rifle like that just to hunt deer with (if it was legal) here in Indiana? Again, don't be silly. I bought it to hunt out West. Can it hit a deer at 1/2 mile? Definitely. BUT I'd bet money that a slug from a shotgun will travel farther than a projectile from that rifle once each touch the ground.
Am I scared of HPR's being legalized here in Indiana (and I live in the northern part of the state)? I am not any more afraid of them being legalized than I am of driving on any highway. IF you want to cite statistics, what is more dangerous, hunting or driving?
I think too many people haven't read Chicken Little.................
Just to add a little this example is of a missed animal were the bullet is perfectly formed at full velocity. Had it passed through its target and become deformed and tranfered its enerjy to the target it would be down within feet of the target. Three hundred yards poople are talking about is a long long way,for a roe anyway,it takes a lot of practise to be able to put it in there were it counts, and in the wind without the right scope most folks are wasting there time and ammo and i include myself in that staement,because it is all guesswork, and if it doesnt go in the right place it just causes hassle sorting the mess out. If i cant get nearer i generally leave it alone and next time i am sitting waiting for it to come to me lol, deer to some extent are creatures of habit if not disturbed too much, and it will be back, patience is the key i have found over the years. That is how i do it, 308 amax and patience. Heck last night i was foxing with my friend got eyes i ranged it with the leica binoculars at 210YDS i had his hornet a wind blowing over my left shoulder i could of tried the shot, did i, no i did not. Why, because i would of missed i may of been lucky but i doubt it.The wind would of put that bullet way off the target. And that range is a long way for a hornets trajectory especially one that is not mine. But my point is, that fox is un desturbed he will be back he is dead he just does not know it yet. Any way m4madness your figures dont count for me i am a dwarf my bullet would hit dirt 250yds away, lol. regards Billy.
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Post by arlowe13 on Mar 26, 2016 9:44:40 GMT -5
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Post by esshup on Mar 26, 2016 12:18:22 GMT -5
Billy:
Is this pretty accurate on the size of a roe deer?
The roe deer is a relatively small deer, with a body length of 95–135 cm (3.1–4.4 ft), a shoulder height of 65–75 cm (2.1–2.5 ft), and a weight of 15–35 kg (33–77 lb).
If so, here is how they compare to a coyote: Coyote males average 8–20 kg (18–44 lb) in weight, while females average 7–18 kg (15–40 lb), though size varies geographically. Northern subspecies, which average 18 kg (40 lb), tend to grow larger than the southern subspecies of Mexico, which average 11.5 kg (25 lb). Body length ranges on average from 1.0 to 1.35 m (3 ft 3.37 in to 4 ft 5.15 in), and tail length 40 cm (16 in), with females being shorter in both body length and height.
Practice makes perfect. 793 meter coyote. I held for a 16 kph full value wind.
![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/esshup/Long%20Range%20Shooting/867%20yd%20coyote_zpsdtwi83jg.jpeg)
BUT, the bullet wasn't an all copper bullet, so using that rifle on roe deer there may be a problem. Yes, I had to make sure there were no bovines in the line of sight during the shot.
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Post by boman on Mar 26, 2016 21:03:45 GMT -5
Billy:
Is this pretty accurate on the size of a roe deer?
The roe deer is a relatively small deer, with a body length of 95–135 cm (3.1–4.4 ft), a shoulder height of 65–75 cm (2.1–2.5 ft), and a weight of 15–35 kg (33–77 lb).
If so, here is how they compare to a coyote: Coyote males average 8–20 kg (18–44 lb) in weight, while females average 7–18 kg (15–40 lb), though size varies geographically. Northern subspecies, which average 18 kg (40 lb), tend to grow larger than the southern subspecies of Mexico, which average 11.5 kg (25 lb). Body length ranges on average from 1.0 to 1.35 m (3 ft 3.37 in to 4 ft 5.15 in), and tail length 40 cm (16 in), with females being shorter in both body length and height.
Practice makes perfect. 793 meter coyote. I held for a 16 kph full value wind.
![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/esshup/Long%20Range%20Shooting/867%20yd%20coyote_zpsdtwi83jg.jpeg)
BUT, the bullet wasn't an all copper bullet, so using that rifle on roe deer there may be a problem. Yes, I had to make sure there were no bovines in the line of sight during the shot. Essup do you always draw that big of a "cowed" when you make an excellent shot?
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Post by esshup on Mar 26, 2016 22:01:38 GMT -5
bowman, Thanks. The cattle were really, really a PITA. They weren't even supposed to be there. Guy in Texas knew that I was going to be there for a few weeks and they had a pig problem on their lease. Asked if I could bring the LR rifle down, spend a few days and see if I could thin the pig population a bit. He couldn't get close, as the field is 900+ yd. by 1,200 yd. The pigs were coming out of the mesquite into the field in different areas. He tried setting hog traps and they were too smart. We get there, go in and get to the camp site. No water, only electric there, and take a shovel to go to the bathroom. We see fresh cow pies in the camp ground area. WTH? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Turns out the landowner rented the property to a rancher to put over 300 head on it, in addition to renting it for a hunting lease. We had a heck of a time keeping them out of the campsite, and from screwing up the camper and tent. There was only that grass that you see for them to eat, and the rancher was coming in every 2 days to bring high protein feed. So, every time a truck drove on the property, it was mobbed by the cattle. The cows disrupted the pigs, and the only time I saw any, the sounder was at a pretty good trot, about 300 yds away and all I had was my .243. I picked out the biggest one at the back of the line, led it and squeezed. I heard the bullet hit, and watched it run for 1/2 mile before it went off of the property and into the mesquite on the neighbors. It didn't even flinch, or break stride when the bullet hit. 85g Barnes @ 3300 fps mv doesn't do much on a 250# or so feral hog at that distance. At the time I was sneaking along through the mesquite and XXXXXly pear cactus, and couldn't see more than 75 yds. No way would the LR gun work in that situation. I had just gotten to the edge of the field and the pigs decided they didn't want to stay on the property anymore. That 'yote was the female, and there was a pair eating on a dead steer. The male ran when the female was hit, but came back about 10 seconds later to see why she wasn't following. I forgot to change the drop (bullet drops 1.5 moa less from a clean cold bore than from a fouled bore) and I flat out missed the 2nd shot. BUT, a buddy that was off to my right got it with a great running shot at about 300 yds. He was shooting a .338-06 AI. So, both the rancher that had the cattle there, the property owner and the hunting leasee were happy that at least we got 2 yotes in the 2 days that we were there.
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Post by esshup on Mar 26, 2016 22:14:31 GMT -5
I had three people that I know ask me today if I saw that the centerfire rifle proposal passed and when we got to talking two said that they were opposed to it. I said "Why" They didn't want high power rifles used because of the flat territory and because of the small property sizes. I asked them if they knew that it was already legal to use those rifles on coyotes, and it was also legal to use those same cartridges in a specialty pistol. Both of them said the exact same thing - "no", "WHAT?" "You're sh...tig me!" I said that Yes, it has been legal to use those cartridges already, and it was legal to use them for deer IF used in a pistol, but not if it was used in a rifle. Both replied "Well, that's absolutely as..nine. Who thought that up? So, you are saying that it is already legal to use them now, but just not for deer in a rifle?" me "yup!" Their next response was well then it's about time everybody got on the same page. The 3rd person to ask me about it was talking to me about what rifle he should look into getting for his 12 year old son. I said look at a .243, and he can also use it for coyote hunting. Next time I see him, I will make sure I have my .243 and some rounds so he can see how it shoots. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by boman on Mar 27, 2016 19:36:03 GMT -5
Essup, I am still laughing at your first reply to my post and I read it last nite. You should write a short story entitled "The Great Texas Hog Hunt with the Cows that wouldn't go Home". again really great shot and good for you enlightening 3 more people about the facts. we need more of that. ![banana](https://www.indianagunowners.com/images/smilies/banana.gif) Steve
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Post by esshup on Mar 27, 2016 20:13:33 GMT -5
Essup, I am still laughing at your first reply to my post and I read it last nite. You should write a short story entitled "The Great Texas Hog Hunt with the Cows that wouldn't go Home". again really great shot and good for you enlightening 3 more people about the facts. we need more of that. ![banana](https://www.indianagunowners.com/images/smilies/banana.gif) Steve One hunting lease wasn't laughing when he got the phone call..... He had a pop-up tent camper there, and left it "popped up". The cattle thought it made a great back scratcher and virtually destroyed it before we got there...... It is definitely not salvageable. I have no idea how that was handled.
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Post by boman on Mar 27, 2016 20:49:19 GMT -5
Essup, I am still laughing at your first reply to my post and I read it last nite. You should write a short story entitled "The Great Texas Hog Hunt with the Cows that wouldn't go Home". again really great shot and good for you enlightening 3 more people about the facts. we need more of that. ![banana](https://www.indianagunowners.com/images/smilies/banana.gif) Steve One hunting lease wasn't laughing when he got the phone call..... He had a pop-up tent camper there, and left it "popped up". The cattle thought it made a great back scratcher and virtually destroyed it before we got there...... It is definitely not salvageable. I have no idea how that was handled. God! I didn't think it could get any worse. Now my side aches ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) You ever gonna go back? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Steve
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Post by esshup on Mar 27, 2016 23:36:15 GMT -5
Steve:
Anytime I'm in Texas I'm supposed to call the guy. He said that if he had the time in his schedule, it's an open invite.
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Post by boman on Mar 28, 2016 22:09:58 GMT -5
Steve: Anytime I'm in Texas I'm supposed to call the guy. He said that if he had the time in his schedule, it's an open invite. well good luck if you do go back and I hope the cows are gone. Steve
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