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Post by gwinnman on Jul 23, 2015 10:21:28 GMT -5
Anybody shoot one? If so, is it worth the money?
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Post by esshup on Jul 23, 2015 11:05:44 GMT -5
I still prefer my .45 Cal Savage Muzzleloader.
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Post by onebentarrow on Jul 23, 2015 18:27:22 GMT -5
I here they are good firearms. But if it was me i would look into a smokeless muzzelloader. If u have any experence with hand loading they are a peace of cake. Check out dougs message board. It is the best place to learn about them. There are some guys on there pushing 250 grain bullets to 3000 fps.
I have 3 of them myself and love them. Would not go back to blackpowder unless mandatory to hunt
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Post by drs on Jul 24, 2015 4:35:12 GMT -5
Who still makes M/Ls that use smokeless powder?? Thought there was a problem with them blowing-up on shooters.
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Post by dbd870 on Jul 24, 2015 7:11:59 GMT -5
I only have experience with one and the guy was having ignition problems that day with it. Cleaned it good, made sure the hole was open; we all gave him one of our primers to try. Only a small fraction of the time could he get it to fire. Don't know if he had some kind of spring issue or dirt inside somewhere but it was giving him fits that day.
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Post by omegahunter on Jul 24, 2015 7:52:23 GMT -5
Who still makes M/Ls that use smokeless powder?? Thought there was a problem with them blowing-up on shooters. Most are being custom built right now. I have a smokeless muzzleloader barrel for my Encore that I shoot saboted .40 caliber bullets. The sabot acts as a safety valve of sorts and will blow out around the bullet before pressures get high enough to split the barrel. Sabotless is not recommended for barrels that have any drill/tap holes for rear sights or scope bases as there is no longer a sabot to blow out and any overpressure seeks the weakest point at the screw holes. I currently have my donor 700 ML to have converted to smokeless. Since the new barrel will be a heavy profile and no screw holes anywhere, I will be able to safely use this as a sabotless smokeless barrel as long as I use all the precautions as any other muzzleloader: use appropriate powder(s), single charge, single bullet. I don't think that there has ever been a PROVEN case of a correctly charged smokeless muzzleloader blowing up. They were all found to be double charged, two bullets, or ramrod still in the barrel when it was fired. Just as you should not be distracted while reloading cartridges, don't get distracted while loading ANY muzzleloader, smokeless or otherwise. And definitely do not use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader built with a mild steel barrel made only to handle blackpowder or BP substitutes. |
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Post by onebentarrow on Jul 24, 2015 8:42:59 GMT -5
br]
And definitely do not use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader built with a mild steel barrel made only to handle blackpowder or BP substitutes.
[/quote]
Ya what he said!!!!!!
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Post by onebentarrow on Jul 24, 2015 8:48:59 GMT -5
I only have experience with one and the guy was having ignition problems that day with it. Cleaned it good, made sure the hole was open; we all gave him one of our primers to try. Only a small fraction of the time could he get it to fire. Don't know if he had some kind of spring issue or dirt inside somewhere but it was giving him fits that day. Wish I had more information but if it was cold,some of the powders are temp sensitive and are hard to get to fire when cold. If he had not cleaned the flame channel it could have been carboned up to the point very little flame was getting thru. If his bullet combo was a loose fit that could have been the problem too and the 209's may not have been hot enough. Any combo nation of these could have caused the problem |
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Post by drs on Jul 24, 2015 8:52:34 GMT -5
br] And definitely do not use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader built with a mild steel barrel made only to handle blackpowder or BP substitutes. I use only Triple 7 RS FFG grade in my T/C Black Diamond. I've found that 90 grans (volume) with a 250 gr. .451 Hornady XTP bullet in a sabot to be the most accurate in my M/L. |
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Post by onebentarrow on Jul 24, 2015 8:54:17 GMT -5
br] And definitely do not use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader built with a mild steel barrel made only to handle blackpowder or BP substitutes. I use only Triple 7 RS FFG grade in my T/C Black Diamond. I've found that 90 grans (volume) with a 250 gr. .451 Hornady XTP bullet in a sabot to be the most accurate in my M/L. |
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Post by onebentarrow on Jul 24, 2015 8:58:11 GMT -5
I use only Triple 7 RS FFG grade in my T/C Black Diamond. I've found that 90 grans (volume) with a 250 gr. .451 Hornady XTP bullet in a sabot to be the most accurate in my M/L. When I shot black powder I found that.90 gr FFF gave me the best accuracy and most reliable ignition AND did not knock my sholder into next week and I never had one deer complain that they got hit with too light of a load |
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Post by drs on Jul 24, 2015 9:12:21 GMT -5
When I shot black powder I found that.90 gr FFF gave me the best accuracy and most reliable ignition AND did not knock my sholder into next week and I never had one deer complain that they got hit with too light of a load The heaviest load I've shot in a M/L was 110 Grains (Volume) of FFG Black Powder in a .54 Caliber (Standard side lock) using a T/C Maxie Ball. Recoil was rough!! With my current M/L (Black Diamond .50 Caliber) I've harvested several Deer with my load of 90 grains (Volume) of Triple 7 FFG using .452" Sabot Hornady XTP bullet. Also, I had no complaints form the Deer I've harvested, being one shot kills out to 90 yards using a T/C Peep Sight. |
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Post by dbd870 on Jul 24, 2015 9:57:16 GMT -5
I only have experience with one and the guy was having ignition problems that day with it. Cleaned it good, made sure the hole was open; we all gave him one of our primers to try. Only a small fraction of the time could he get it to fire. Don't know if he had some kind of spring issue or dirt inside somewhere but it was giving him fits that day. Wish I had more information but if it was cold,some of the powders are temp sensitive and are hard to get to fire when cold. If he had not cleaned the flame channel it could have been carboned up to the point very little flame was getting thru. If his bullet combo was a loose fit that could have been the problem too and the 209's may not have been hot enough. Any combo nation of these could have caused the problem Wasn't cold and wasn't a bullet fit problem - flame channel is a possibility. I f you told me I could have a 700 or an Encore for free I'd take the Encore - however I may be biased! |
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Post by swilk on Jul 24, 2015 13:14:33 GMT -5
Was it 5744 or something like that that was originally a recommended powder from Savage? Then after some time and more information they went away from recommending that powder because it had ignition problems.
Not all powders will go bang.
Vent liners. Powder. Bullet/sabot fit. Temperature. Primers.
Can be finicky little guys .... love em though. Currently have two savages and have used them exclusively for years. Year before last I bought and set up a new encore for my dad because he cant load my savages.... the substitute world has changed a bunch in the last 15 years. I tried blackhorn 209 and really really like it.
If I were wanting to set up a new muzzleloader for myself I would likely use a 700 donor rifle and get a smokeless barrel for it.
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Post by esshup on Jul 24, 2015 13:28:02 GMT -5
Who still makes M/Ls that use smokeless powder?? Thought there was a problem with them blowing-up on shooters. I think the guys that experienced problems with them have no business reloading metallic cartridges, let alone using ANY muzzleloader. Think of the annual Darwin awards and you get my point...... I believe there was one that was purposely blown up, and then it was tried to be passed off as a defective gun. Those that have been around awhile in the smokeless crowd know what I'm talking about. Correct, the 5744 powder was found to give inconsistent ignition, especially in colder temps. But a buddy has used it since around 2007 and he's had 0 misfires. If I had the choice between an encore or a M700, I'd take the M700 and re-barrel it in .45 cal. I'm pushing the .40 cal. Barnes 195g FB bullet at 2850 fps and accuracy at 100 yds. is right around 1/2 moa. Using the blue sabot and H-4198 powder. |
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Post by GS1 on Jul 24, 2015 14:06:31 GMT -5
Interesting to know about the 5744 and ignition problems. Besides a brief stint with 4198 when I wanted to punish myself, that is all I've used. Never had a problem yet.
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Post by esshup on Jul 24, 2015 16:17:58 GMT -5
I think that if you use the correct bullet and sabot, which results in a tight fit, and use shotgun 209 primers you won't have any problems. I shoot the gun from a lead sled to do load development. As many times as I squeeze the trigger off of the lead sled, I don't worry about recoil. Even when I used the ML-I and loaded it pretty stiff with duplex and a 350 grain Barnes "X" bullet for hogs I didn't feel the recoil when hunting. No, that's not a typo - 350 grains. Recoil is about the same with that load as a .458 Win Mag. I do/did enough rifle shooting with lighter recoiling rifles to get the basics down. The last doe that I shot at 60 yds with the .45 cal Savage I saw the bullet hit the ground on the other side of the deer - follow thru is the name of the game.  |
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Post by swilk on Jul 24, 2015 18:45:53 GMT -5
I use the 300gr Barnes original and a very healthy dose of 10x. In my plastic stocked gun it is among the most felt recoil I've ever personally shot. Just vicious.
The laminate stock gun is better because of the weight but I still prefer shooting them off a sled.....
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Post by onebentarrow on Jul 24, 2015 19:01:04 GMT -5
4227 was the recommended powder that was temp sensitive
. It cost me 2 deer and a silver tipped black yote by not firing when I was hunting in 0 TO 10° weather. I have been using 5744 and not had any problems and on dougs they are using it as a booster( poor in 7 to 11 grains then 40 to 60 gr of another powder) for temp sensitive powder
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Post by swilk on Jul 24, 2015 19:27:22 GMT -5
Yes...4227.
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