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Post by ms660 on Feb 24, 2015 13:35:28 GMT -5
ms660- Compare it to a stocked lake. There are big ones in there you just have to catch them. No guarantee. Is it still fishing. We can discuss fishing later if you want. I would really like to know many bucks under 3years old or 125" are running around behind your fence. Do you keep records on hunter success rates? What does your records show in comparison to hunter success rates on fenced hunts and the free range hunts you offer on bucks 3 years old or 125" or more. This should tell the truth on the matter. Are your prices the same on fenced hunts and free range hunts? We have all seen the Bellar videos and the way he conducted business for certain people wanting to promote their image as a hunter (Jimmy Houston). What's your opinion on this?
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Post by windingwinds on Feb 24, 2015 13:46:02 GMT -5
Fenced hunting is fenced hunting, period. It's not a stocked pond. A pond naturally has limits of where the fish can swim. Land has no limits therefore is not natural to hunt in a area that restricts deer movement. It's not fair chase. It's a sad day in Indiana when we are okay with canned hunting.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 14:08:47 GMT -5
So when one says "world record typical whitetail" does one think of Boone and Crockett or SCI? I can guarantee you every deer hunter on here can tell you the Hunter that took the Wirkd Recird Typicks whitetail not not on can tell you what is the top typical SCI.. They and the deer farmers are b astardizing deer hunting.. Woody, All depends on your audience. If you are talking about a few guys on a little hunting forum you might be right. But the world is a big place. Most hunters by percentage dont even care or know how to score, its either a 8 pt or 10 pt. Go to the largest hunting expos in the world, you would definitely be a bean in a bushel of corn. The money they generate is what will save hunting and the hunting heritage for you and everyone else. Now you are getting more ridiculous. Only at a SCI convention or a deer farm gathering would anyone call a Genetically engineered deer a "world record".. Pose that question anywhere else and they will tell you the true World record.. I'm sorry but you are not talking to the bought and paid for politicians here..
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Post by throbak on Feb 24, 2015 14:45:34 GMT -5
DRS, we will agree to disagree. I introduce hundreds and hundreds into the great outdoors each year and make a lot of dreams come true. The preserve is just a part of what I do but that is where the demand has been for the past few years and is growing in leaps and bounds. If a guy wants to go out and shoot everything brown and call it hunting or whatever then so be it but not here. If a sportsman is not interested in the hunt, the heritage, the ethics and the "deer camp" experience they wont be hunting with us. If sportsmen continue to pit against one another over bow and cross bow and shotgun and rifle the only place you will be able to hunt will be on a preserve where the hunting heritage will always continue. The commercialization of wild life was perceived a problem LOOOONG ago this is no different and it was a problem then and still is ,, you speak of growing by leaps and bounds. Its also getting cut off at the Knees all around us also KY, MO,comes to mind . You are confused in using the term Sportsman what your selling is not sportsmanship ,, hunting as you call it Is NOT and NEVER will be a Heritage to continue as you describe it all your selling is the privilege to Kill something do your Sportsmen Pay just to come and sit in your Pen and observe free NO KILL NO PAY Why are you even here ?? you need to go sell your trash to some one else
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Post by drs on Feb 24, 2015 14:50:50 GMT -5
DRS, we will agree to disagree. I introduce hundreds and hundreds into the great outdoors each year and make a lot of dreams come true. The preserve is just a part of what I do but that is where the demand has been for the past few years and is growing in leaps and bounds. If a guy wants to go out and shoot everything brown and call it hunting or whatever then so be it but not here. If a sportsman is not interested in the hunt, the heritage, the ethics and the "deer camp" experience they wont be hunting with us. If sportsmen continue to pit against one another over bow and cross bow and shotgun and rifle the only place you will be able to hunt will be on a preserve where the hunting heritage will always continue. The commercialization of wild life was perceived a problem LOOOONG ago this is no different and it was a problem then and still is ,, you speak of growing by leaps and bounds. Its also getting cut off at the Knees all around us also KY, MO,comes to mind . You are confused in using the term Sportsman what your selling is not sportsmanship ,, hunting as you call it Is NOT and NEVER will be a Heritage to continue as you describe it all your selling is the privilege to Kill something do your Sportsmen Pay just to come and sit in your Pen and observe free NO KILL NO PAY Why are you even here ?? you need to go sell your trash to some one else
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Post by throbak on Feb 24, 2015 14:55:12 GMT -5
AND FURTHER MORE THIS IS WHY I SUPPORT THE NWTF AND THE IWF THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT NEED YOU PEOPLE IN INDIANA
The primary reason that NWTF is taking such a visible stance on this issue is because this legislation threatens the foundational principles (North American Model of Wildlife Conservation) of natural resource management in Indiana. The Indiana Department of Natural Resources has the authority to protect our wildlife and manage it for the citizens of the state. We feel it should remain that way.
Although we are concerned about the threat that CWD poses to wild deer, we are even more concerned about legislation that directly impacts the Indiana DNR’s ability to manage and protect the wild deer herd. Hunting generates $300M annually and directly impacts 1,600+ jobs in the hunting arena, as well as approximately 233,000 licensed deer hunters.
The NWTF strongly believes that wildlife management decisions should be made by trained and experienced wildlife biologists, using the best science to manage our state’s wildlife, hunters, and hunting heritage. They should not be made by the Indiana Board of Animal Health, as it has no mandate to protect and manage wildlife.
DID YOU CATCH THAT HUNTERMAN Hunting generates $300M annually and directly impacts 1,600+ jobs in the hunting arena, as well as approximately 233,000 licensed deer hunters. FOR A START
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Post by span870 on Feb 24, 2015 15:10:10 GMT -5
Man I'm staying out of this one except for this one question. When I argued my point earlier that these aren't wild deer but livestock everyone brought up cwd. Looks like cwd isn't why you are against it its because it isn't fair chase. Which is it?
Let me ask you this. If I put a cow in my running pen and sat it a tree stand and shot it, would you have the same reactions?
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Post by span870 on Feb 24, 2015 15:13:16 GMT -5
What about broadmouth elk ranch in Utah and Idaho? 5000 acres behind high fence. What's ya alls thought on this?
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 15:18:51 GMT -5
Size matters. Habitat inside the enclosure matters.
But, it is not fair chase no matter what.
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Post by throbak on Feb 24, 2015 15:30:31 GMT -5
Man I'm staying out of this one except for this one question. When I argued my point earlier that these aren't wild deer but livestock everyone brought up cwd. Looks like cwd isn't why you are against it its because it isn't fair chase. Which is it? Let me ask you this. If I put a cow in my running pen and sat it a tree stand and shot it, would you have the same reactions? That wouldn't be sportsman like either the difference is are you paying to hunt OR paying to KILL.. Then they bring CWD into the wild herd and they have NO RESPONSIBILITY or are they livestock to do as they please and be responsible for their helth and all they effect??? if you kill your cow in a stand and shoot it but would you get on huntingindiana and brag on your 2500lb 250yd shot, Holstein HUNT, see the difference its Not Hunting Its not a Heritage its not sportsmanlike
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Post by subzero350 on Feb 24, 2015 15:40:02 GMT -5
Canned hunting isn't hunting at all. It's killing. Plain and simple.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 15:44:08 GMT -5
There are government regulations covering both the killing and slaughtering of livestock and the killing and slaughtering iof wild deer.
If the deer within these pens are considered livestock then the regulations on killing and slaughtering should be followed. I'm not quite sure shooting the cow from a stand follows thise regulations? I could be with though..
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 15:49:44 GMT -5
What about broadmouth elk ranch in Utah and Idaho? 5000 acres behind high fence. What's ya alls thought on this? "Guaranteed kill" says it is not a fair chase to me. How about you?
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Post by squirrelhunter on Feb 24, 2015 16:26:49 GMT -5
Not really wanting to get involved but found this from a dictionary,notice it says "While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures." It doesn't say anything about age of an animal. Here's the total thing from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting Fair chase The principles of the fair chase[28] have been a part of the American hunting tradition for over one hundred years. The role of the hunter-conservationist, popularised by Theodore Roosevelt, and perpetuated by Roosevelt's formation of the Boone and Crockett Club, has been central to the development of the modern fair chase tradition. Beyond Fair Chase: The Ethic and Tradition of Hunting, a book by Jim Posewitz, describes fair chase: "Fundamental to ethical hunting is the idea of fair chase. This concept addresses the balance between the hunter and the hunted. It is a balance that allows hunters to occasionally succeed while animals generally avoid being taken."[29] When Internet hunting was introduced in 2005, allowing people to hunt over the Internet using remotely controlled guns, the practice was widely criticised by hunters as violating the principles of fair chase. As a representative of the National Rifle Association (NRA) explained, "The NRA has always maintained that fair chase, being in the field with your firearm or bow, is an important element of hunting tradition. Sitting at your desk in front of your computer, clicking at a mouse, has nothing to do with hunting."[30] One hunting club declares that a fair chase shall not involve the taking of animals under the following conditions: Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. From any power vehicle or power boat. By "jacklighting" or shining at night. By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. By the use of any power vehicle or power boat for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.[31] Just saying. I'm done now.
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 24, 2015 16:50:32 GMT -5
Not really wanting to get involved but found this from a dictionary,notice it says "While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures." It doesn't say anything about age of an animal. Here's the total thing from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting Fair chase The principles of the fair chase[28] have been a part of the American hunting tradition for over one hundred years. The role of the hunter-conservationist, popularised by Theodore Roosevelt, and perpetuated by Roosevelt's formation of the Boone and Crockett Club, has been central to the development of the modern fair chase tradition. Beyond Fair Chase: The Ethic and Tradition of Hunting, a book by Jim Posewitz, describes fair chase: "Fundamental to ethical hunting is the idea of fair chase. This concept addresses the balance between the hunter and the hunted. It is a balance that allows hunters to occasionally succeed while animals generally avoid being taken."[29] When Internet hunting was introduced in 2005, allowing people to hunt over the Internet using remotely controlled guns, the practice was widely criticised by hunters as violating the principles of fair chase. As a representative of the National Rifle Association (NRA) explained, "The NRA has always maintained that fair chase, being in the field with your firearm or bow, is an important element of hunting tradition. Sitting at your desk in front of your computer, clicking at a mouse, has nothing to do with hunting."[30] One hunting club declares that a fair chase shall not involve the taking of animals under the following conditions: Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. From any power vehicle or power boat. By "jacklighting" or shining at night. By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. By the use of any power vehicle or power boat for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.[31] Just saying. I'm done now. POPE and YOUNGs rules you just posted above are grossly outdated archaic and just the rules for book entry of Big game animals only !! So by their rules your bow let off disqualifies you if its too high and the use of a sight light or lighted knocks too .LOL just saying clubs are often poor rule makers they are not exempt from that . FYI by what they say then shooting coon and varmints at night under lights is not hunting and not fair chase !! Just saying they are not all knowing in hunting just in their club . Also FYI Jack lighting was a common means of hunting prior to the last century and it was a matter of eating you guys are under the impression how we have done it over the last 50 -100 years is how we have always hunted here .But how we do it now is all about sport trophy hunting not true sustenance hunting and that black cloud that all but whipped out all the game we had MARKET hunting in the mid late 1800s .Heck a bunch of so called sportsmen don't even eat what they kill .They are imho not sportsmen at all and there are far more like that than we will admit involved in killing our game and deer . Guy's look farther back than just the last 100 years of hobby and trophy hunting its a far different picture than the trophy clubs paint .There was a time where hunters would light fires set to run animals into canyons or water or even over cliffs to kill them or make it easier to kill them just for the hunters to feed their selves and people .LOL We think we are hunters here it makes me laugh sometimes we are not even hobby hunters by comparisons to those who colonized this and other countries .Or large numbers would on foot or horse back do the same as described to make it easier to kill the game they were after .Deer were not exempt from these practices . Now we use terms like sportsmanship very liberally and hold our own ideals of such above what others do or consider something as rudimentary as hunting ..LOL
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 24, 2015 16:53:45 GMT -5
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Post by chubwub on Feb 24, 2015 17:40:02 GMT -5
There are government regulations covering both the killing and slaughtering of livestock and the killing and slaughtering iof wild deer. If the deer within these pens are considered livestock then the regulations on killing and slaughtering should be followed. I'm not quite sure shooting the cow from a stand follows thise regulations? I could be with though.. It is perfectly legal to dispatch livestock such as pigs, cows, sheep and even horses with a firearm. The only requirement in Indiana is that "State board establishes rules that require animals to be rendered insensible to pain prior to severance of the carotid artery." www.animallaw.info/article/table-state-humane-slaughter-lawsSo what I'm saying Woody is that your dream of bagging that trophy Holstein isn't just a pipe dream. modernfarmer.com/2014/09/dangerous-hunt-stalking-wild-rainforest-cattle-hawaii/
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Post by firstwd on Feb 24, 2015 17:52:52 GMT -5
Where is this place? I for one would love to come see it so I can form an educated opinion. I'll ask again, where is your place located? I have 3 right close to me that I'm not at all impressed with. Partly because several ear tagged deer have been shot over the years up to 10 miles from the farm the escaped from. I would gladly give you the opportunity to change my mind.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 24, 2015 18:20:30 GMT -5
There are government regulations covering both the killing and slaughtering of livestock and the killing and slaughtering iof wild deer. If the deer within these pens are considered livestock then the regulations on killing and slaughtering should be followed. I'm not quite sure shooting the cow from a stand follows thise regulations? I could be with though.. It is perfectly legal to dispatch livestock such as pigs, cows, sheep and even horses with a firearm. The only requirement in Indiana is that "State board establishes rules that require animals to be rendered insensible to pain prior to severance of the carotid artery." www.animallaw.info/article/table-state-humane-slaughter-lawsSo what I'm saying Woody is that your dream of bagging that trophy Holstein isn't just a pipe dream. modernfarmer.com/2014/09/dangerous-hunt-stalking-wild-rainforest-cattle-hawaii/Indiana has its own laws also.... You can't pay to shoot your neighbors COW ..... www.in.gov/boah/index.htm
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 19:04:37 GMT -5
If nothing else woody you have finally got a hot topic to get some activity. Here are some facts. Outdoor life which every hunter in the world knows of and which is against high fence hunting did a survey, Their survey found 63% of sportsmen would not shut down preserves, I did not say they would hunt on them but they didnt have a problem with them. The survey is a little biased in my opinion I think because I have seen the percentage more like 82 in favor. I do know for a fact that more people have hunted on my preserve in indiana than has ever testified at any and all public hearings combined(legislation and public comment hearings). Years ago when they held public hearing there was 67 people who showed up in opposition. There was 182 showed up in support. Woody you was at one of those meetings.
The hunting preserve industry does not affect average hunters in any negative way. The benfits include more places to hunt, income into the state and the preservation and promotion of the hunting heritage. The disease BS has been debunked by BOAH and experts from all over. PETAs goal is to stop all hunting, they are just using a few misguided folks to join them blindly to help kill the hunting industry one piece at a time. Some sportsmen are naive enough to think if they give peta trapping or hunting preserves that they will stop there and not come afer their own type of hunting. The only way hunting preserves affects you is if you are jealous someone is killing a bigger deer than you or you want to come hunt on one. Other than that, live and let live.
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