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Post by jjas on Feb 24, 2015 7:55:12 GMT -5
DRS
While I completely agree with your stance on this subject, I disagree with you when it comes to whether these places will succeed or fail.
The obsession to kill big bucks knows no bounds for many today. Even "average" deer hunters spend more money on hunting than I would have ever dreamed of 30 years ago. Expensive bows, arrows, guns, optics, clothing, food plots, leasing, four wheelers, etc are considered "normal" for many hunters today.
Just look @ the staggering amount of money spent on cameras to try to inventory and pattern deer.
So do I think these places will survive? I not only think that, I think some of them will thrive.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 10:29:19 GMT -5
I asked for details of your place, but maybe more specific questions are needed..
1) Is any of your place cross fenced at all? IOW, do you have fences in place that further divides and multiplies the number of deer per acre and makes it more "escape proof"? I vividly recall the shining example of "shooting preserves" in Indiana had a 3 acre fenced area that a buck was turned loose in to let a TV celebrity try and kill it. If you are cross fenced how big are the areas that you have fenced? Are they all "huntable"?
2) since there are other species, such as elk, fallow deer, and rams, to be "hunted" are these in the same fenced in area as the whitetails or in separate enclosures?
3) I personally don't believe it is possible for 120 acres to adequately support 60 deer AND keep them healthy from July through December. I believe that supplemental feeding must occur at that time, so again - Do you have any stands on these feeding stations? Do you have any stands on trails leading to these feeding stations?
4) Are any of your deer acclimated to humans?
5) Are any of your deer bottle fed as fawns?
6) Do you charge by the "hunt" or is the charge by inches of antler?
BTW - I recall another TV video on an Indiana deer shooting preserve where the "hunter" and his cameraman sat in an elevated box blind and had a decent buck walk down a road to their location. The "hunter" gun shot the deer at less than 10 yards. Sound familiar?
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 10:31:56 GMT -5
DRS,
No, they wont go bankrupt. As long as there are antler worshippers there will be money to be made at these places. Disease is about the only thing that could possibly shut one down and then they will be more than likely reimbursed by the government for at least part of their herd.
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Post by drs on Feb 24, 2015 10:36:15 GMT -5
DRS While I completely agree with your stance on this subject, I disagree with you when it comes to whether these places will succeed or fail. The obsession to kill big bucks knows no bounds for many today. Even "average" deer hunters spend more money on hunting than I would have ever dreamed of 30 years ago. Expensive bows, arrows, guns, optics, clothing, food plots, leasing, four wheelers, etc are considered "normal" for many hunters today. Just look @ the staggering amount of money spent on cameras to try to inventory and pattern deer. So do I think these places will survive? I not only think that, I think some of them will thrive. I get your point on this subject of Fenced/Canned Hunting. However, we now live in a different world, and with the fact there are MUCH MORE non-hunters than hunters; this canned hunting will give the sport a bad name. I remember years ago on a news show, they showed one of these "canned Hunting showings" to a group of Hunters. I believe the show was titled The Guns Of Autumn. Anyway it showed segments that weren't appealing to most of the Hunters that were viewing the show. I strongly believe these facilities will be short lived as public opinion will be negative on such facilities. What say you & others here, we leave Sport Hunting as is, and give game animals a fair chance, without the fences and over crowding of game animals.
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Post by drs on Feb 24, 2015 10:44:45 GMT -5
DRS, No, they wont go bankrupt. As long as there are antler worshippers there will be money to be made at these places. Disease is about the only thing that could possibly shut one down and then they will be more than likely reimbursed by the government for at least part of their herd. Public opinion, that is NON-HUNTING PUBLIC, will do their best to shut down such facilities, via elected officials. You are correct, Woody, in that the chances of Disease breaking out infecting the wild herd is almost certain to happen as in several other States. Unbelievable this is happening in Indiana. Those who allowed this to happen are very mislead, and don't know anything about Wildlife Management.
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 11:08:04 GMT -5
good lord my tongue is hurting .....
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 11:09:19 GMT -5
DRS- Your post show you know as little about wildlife management as you do business. Maybe if you saw some 250 lb typical 200 inch deer two yr olds you would question your "guesses" you've made on the subject. We also offer Fair Chase hunts on both sides of the fence. That is why the preserves are in so much demand, again you analogy falls short of reality. If a vast number of sportsmen did not demand it then they would not exist, business 101. You can still have your misguided opinions and post them but just know they will be called out and proven wrong.
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 11:12:54 GMT -5
Fair chase hunts on both sides of the fence? Explain please ....
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Post by chubwub on Feb 24, 2015 11:19:51 GMT -5
In my experience, non-hunters will moan and groan about anything that causes an animals they perceive as "cute, majestic or noble" to die. Nothing you say or do to make hunting more "palatable" for the uninformed masses is going to have any notable impact. These are the kind of people who think that if you have an HPR that you can instantly kill anything that moves 600 yards out with ease. They have zero ideas of what is giving a game animal a "fair chance."
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 11:21:29 GMT -5
I asked for details of your place, but maybe more specific questions are needed.. 1) Is any of your place cross fenced at all? IOW, do you have fences in place that further divides and multiplies the number of deer per acre and makes it more "escape proof"? I vividly recall the shining example of "shooting preserves" in Indiana had a 3 acre fenced area that a buck was turned loose in to let a TV celebrity try and kill it. If you are cross fenced how big are the areas that you have fenced? Are they all "huntable"? No- I have a place where I keep bottle raised deer for urine collection. There is nothing better than fresh lures. I sold it in stores until the demand got so high it interfered with everything else. Only hunt occurs on 120 free range area 2) since there are other species, such as elk, fallow deer, and rams, to be "hunted" are these in the same fenced in area as the whitetails or in separate enclosures? No- All same acreage- Exotics numbers are not high, maybe 10 of 60 as far as percentage 3) I personally don't believe it is possible for 120 acres to adequately support 60 deer AND keep them healthy from July through December. I believe that supplemental feeding must occur at that time, so again - Do you have any stands on these feeding stations? Do you have any stands on trails leading to these feeding stations? No- Once the food plots, sorghum sudan, turinps, clover and everytinng else kicks in there is no need to feed. 4) Are any of your deer acclimated to humans? yes- the ones we clooect urine from. And some of the does on the preserve are 5) Are any of your deer bottle fed as fawns? yes- only for urine collection so they will enter stalls without going crazy 6) Do you charge by the "hunt" or is the charge by inches of antler? we charge by small, medium and large. Just like anything else BTW - I recall another TV video on an Indiana deer shooting preserve where the "hunter" and his cameraman sat in an elevated box blind and had a decent buck walk down a road to their location. The "hunter" gun shot the deer at less than 10 yards. Sound familiar?
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Post by drs on Feb 24, 2015 11:28:53 GMT -5
DRS- Your post show you know as little about wildlife management as you do business. Maybe if you saw some 250 lb typical 200 inch deer two yr olds you would question your "guesses" you've made on the subject. We also offer Fair Chase hunts on both sides of the fence. That is why the preserves are in so much demand, again you analogy falls short of reality. If a vast number of sportsmen did not demand it then they would not exist, business 101. You can still have your misguided opinions and post them but just know they will be called out and proven wrong. I happen to hold degrees in BOTH subjects you listed. It's YOU who is either misinformed or lack knowledge on those subjects. It's individuals like yourself that is trying to change a noble sport as Hunting to a commercial enterprise, going to the highest bidder. Your kind is going to add injury to Sport Hunting, which now days hurting enough as with public opinion.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 11:31:55 GMT -5
swilk- As an outfitter I offer hunts on a preserve and on private properties. I do not allow my hunters to kill any deer under three yrs old or under 125 inches on either side of the fence. I do make exceptions for kids and disabled people. We hunt exactly the same on both sides, food plots, rutting activity, oak flats etc. No baiting. 95% of hunts are conducted from a stand. I have a much higher success rate on the preserve because I control all the elements that makes it difficult in the wild. No poaching, no killing young deer, the deer are healthy and managed by eliminating poor genetics. If you hunt one of my stands on either side of the fence your hunt will be unsuccessful if the deer sees, hears or smells you. The deer will run to another area and you will not see it again. You will have to regroup and plan the hunt for the next day. My poin is this. The fence "alone" does not make it fair chase or not. It can though and thats where its wrong and that why people who truly have not experienced it cant understand.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 11:35:58 GMT -5
DRS- I would venture to guess, and can probably prove. I have done more for sportsmen, wildlife and the hunting heritage in one season than you have done in a lifetime. If your arguments had any validity to them and were as you thought they were then preserves wouldn't exist. How can they be the fastest growing segment of the hunting industry then.
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 11:36:34 GMT -5
In my experience, non-hunters will moan and groan about anything that causes an animals they perceive as "cute, majestic or noble" to die. Nothing you say or do to make hunting more "palatable" for the uninformed masses is going to have any notable impact. These are the kind of people who think that if you have an HPR that you can instantly kill anything that moves 600 yards out with ease. They have zero ideas of what is giving a game animal a "fair chance." Yep .... fence, no fence, it dont really matter to those who dont want us killing critters. Getting away from the nuts and into just normal folk .... I think high fence hunting could be palatable for them assuming it passes the canned hunt smell test. Drugging a deer and turning it loose in a 2 acre enclosure? No. Sitting in a treestand inside of a 1000 acre enclosure and "hunting" amongst a reasonable amount of "wild as can be while inside an enclosure" deer? Many folks would say yes.
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 11:37:37 GMT -5
swilk- As an outfitter I offer hunts on a preserve and on private properties. I do not allow my hunters to kill any deer under three yrs old or under 125 inches on either side of the fence. I do make exceptions for kids and disabled people. We hunt exactly the same on both sides, food plots, rutting activity, oak flats etc. No baiting. 95% of hunts are conducted from a stand. I have a much higher success rate on the preserve because I control all the elements that makes it difficult in the wild. No poaching, no killing young deer, the deer are healthy and managed by eliminating poor genetics. If you hunt one of my stands on either side of the fence your hunt will be unsuccessful if the deer sees, hears or smells you. The deer will run to another area and you will not see it again. You will have to regroup and plan the hunt for the next day. My poin is this. The fence "alone" does not make it fair chase or not. It can though and thats where its wrong and that why people who truly have not experienced it cant understand. Inside that fence is not fair chase. I dont think there is really any discussion on that one .....
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 11:41:44 GMT -5
Swilk- I would agree if you agreed it was not canned hunting. But some people use the term Fair Chase and totally use it in the wrong context.
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 11:43:56 GMT -5
It matters not if you agree ... inside of an enclosure is not fair chase.
A man can stand in a green room and swear that it is pink ..... dont make it any less green.
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 11:45:28 GMT -5
Just as a man a hunt on a million acres and do it in a manner thats not fair chase.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 11:49:33 GMT -5
good lord my tongue is hurting ..... Is that from holding it?
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 11:50:00 GMT -5
Just as a man a hunt on a million acres and do it in a manner thats not fair chase. What does that, or anything else, have to do with the fact that inside an enclosure is not fair chase? You can make your point without saying things that are blatantly false ....
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