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Post by sakorifle on Nov 9, 2014 14:41:18 GMT -5
One of our lads is testing copper ammo on roe deer this year, It is 165grn sako. First reports are it works if it hits bone or thick muscle like a shoulder, but if not it zips through with very little blood to follow. He has collected every animal he has shot but that is thanks to his dog, all have been dead up to now. If this is a success I would think we will all be put onto it. I like what I am on which is sako 123grn softpoints this stuff drops them on the spot. Regards Billy
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 9, 2014 15:55:16 GMT -5
The all copper bullets are very popular here as well, however for deer I really don't see the need for them. I've had good results on deer with plain old GameKings from several rifles
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Post by sakorifle on Nov 9, 2014 17:23:46 GMT -5
greetings Well the reason they are being tested is because deer have been x rayed and they have found a lot of lead splatter in the meat mainly around the bullet holes, and as we know lead is very toxic, they say it should not be put into the food chain, now i have never heard of anyone with lead poisoning from eating deer, but i am a simple hunter, and at some point i know lead for all hunting will be banned in the uk,i just hope it is not in my time. It has started, on waterfowl now in England no lead shells allowed. The Scottish forestry commission use copper all the time in 270 rifles and have done so for two years,with mixed results i believe. regards Billy
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Post by schoolmaster on Nov 9, 2014 20:09:18 GMT -5
I have killed numerous whitetails and one elk with Barnes copper bullets. They penetrated, expanded. exited with good blood trails, and did not go very far. They are my bullet of choice for big game hunting. You did not state the make of the copper bullets that are being used but if they are not Barnes I suggest that they be tried. With Barnes bullets you can go with a lighter bullet at higher velocity for increased expansion and still get excellent penetration.
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Post by esshup on Nov 9, 2014 20:11:33 GMT -5
Billy: Barnes Bullets make a lot of all copper bullets. When using them you have to pay attention to the impact velocity. Once they slow down, they don't open up as much, or not at all. I know some of the Barnes bullets have a minimum impact velocity of 1,900 fps. www.barnesbullets.com/I use them in my .257 Weatherby, and they perform very well. But, they are moving pretty fast. I wonder if anybody has done any testing on game with the powdered metal bullets? No lead, and they fragment pretty easily when hitting something hard. They are perfect for shooting steel targets - no bullet splatter.
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Post by sakorifle on Nov 10, 2014 13:47:07 GMT -5
Greetings They are sako bullets but I am sure sako use Barnes heads, they have a blue polymer tip on them, and I believe they are expensive over here. Work on the shoulder but seem to zip through the ribs with little or no expansion. He is using them all season so we will see what happens. Why do you prefer copper to lead bullets Schoolmaster and esshup? Regards Billy
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Post by HuntMeister on Nov 10, 2014 18:04:40 GMT -5
In my experiences, I like the all copper because they almost always leave an exit hole which helps with the tracking in the rare event that I have to track one. So far (knock on wood) I have not had to track a deer more than 50-70 yards, most die within sight. As essup has said, impact velocity is important and I find that they do best expansion wise when they do not contact heavy bone.
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Post by schoolmaster on Nov 10, 2014 21:21:17 GMT -5
I like the idea of through and through penetration. Two holes instead of one. The Barnes bullets I have used are all bigger caliber from .35 to .45 My smokeless muzzle loaders use .40 and .45 The 195 grain 40 caliber is shot at 2600+ as is the .35 from my .358 wildcat. The .45 has a gaping hollow point and is shot at 2200 to 2300 f/s. I shot an elk with the 300 grain 45 bullet and it penetrated about 3 feet of elk and was under the hide on the far side perfectly expanded. This is the only Barnes bullet I have ever recovered. I usually get an inch to inch and a half exit wounds. The animals do not go very far and leave a good blood trail. The internals are torn up. My farthest kill is 275 yards with the .35 and this large doe went 40 yards or so with the top of her heart shot off. When bone is hit the bullet stays on a straight line course and loses very little weight. When a raking shot is taken the bullet will penetrate through to the vitals and exit. I have every confidence in Barnes bullets. They have never failed me.
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Post by esshup on Nov 11, 2014 0:44:41 GMT -5
Same reasons. I've shot a whitetail at 80 yds with a Nosler Ballistic Tip from the .257 Wby and the bullet didn't exit. The deer died after it ran 100 yds, but due to the angle of the shot, there was no blood for the first 90 yds. If I hadn't watched the deer drop over dead I might not have recovered the deer.
I shot a Corsican Ram at 30 yds with the same gun and a Barnes bullet. It stiffened up at the shot and tipped right over. It looked like it instantly froze in one position. It was laying on the ground and there was still hair floating down. I had wanted to shoot it at around 300 yds, but it wouldn't break free from the herd and I knew I didn't want to shoot 2 with one shot. It followed the tree line and passed right by me. With the scope set on 14x, I had both eyes open to get the x-hair lined up (yeah, I know I shouldn't but I shoot a scoped gun with one eye closed).
I use them in my .243 for whitetails and have yet to recover a bullet. The deer don't go far at all. I also use them in my .45 cal Savage Muzzleloader. 195g .40 cal bullet. They are leaving the muzzle at 2830-2850 fps and work great. I have never recovered a Barnes bullet from an animal.
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Post by sakorifle on Nov 11, 2014 4:39:50 GMT -5
Greetings They are Barnes tipped with tsx powehead11 bullets. 165grn. Well he also says much the same, if it zips through they don't go far, I cannot help thinking that the bullets they are trying are much too heavy for little roe deer. Perhaps a lighter faster one would of been more appropriate Anyway the trials are on. Are these bullets a lot more expensive over there as they are here? almost double the price of lead over here. Regards Billy
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 11, 2014 7:14:57 GMT -5
They command maybe another 20% over a standard cup and core.
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Post by deadeer on Nov 11, 2014 9:19:30 GMT -5
I agree on the notion of too heavy a bullet being too tough on a small deer to give good expansion. With copper you can use a lighter bullet at higher speed and it will turn those deer inside out. Good luck.
Jay
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Post by steve46511 on Nov 11, 2014 11:26:26 GMT -5
They command maybe another 20% over a standard cup and core. I must be missing something. What's 20 percent more? Copper bullets? You mean 200 percent, not 20.....right? 50 Barnes 180 gr 358 bullets are priced near the same as 100 Speer 180. Double the price is pretty normal from my memory for copper bullets over cup and core Only my two cents but I've been reading the comments on deer "running off" after shot with a rifle and why the like copper to get the exit hole. Only thing I'll say about that is if I WAS experiencing deer "running off" for any reason other than I made a poor hit after being shot with ANY firearm, I'd be switching something BUT......repeat, repeat......that's only for my desires. Bullet "failure" means different things to different hunters. Some want maximum penetration and I would for Big dangerous game. Some want "bang flop" performance on the non dangerous, smaller varieties of game. Each is available in a couple different principles and combinations of bore size, bullet weight, velocity and bullet composition. There isn't ONE "magic bullet" but one comes close IMHO and has been around over 70 years. I wont start that discussion as it's only my opinion. Some things SOME copper bullets will do "better", some things they will not, JUST like versions of the cup and core bullets. As always each picks from available components they feel give their desired results and goes hunting. The BEST bullet is the one each has faith in. Ive yet to find a cup and core combo that wont do what I want so "upgrading" has never been much considered. What some of the copper bullets are ADVERTISED to do isn't something I desire in a bullet Its that simple. Obviously most opinions vary or there wouldn't BE so many types of bullets with so many varying advertised results and I doubt that will change much over the years. God Bless
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 11, 2014 12:13:39 GMT -5
Umm oops - yeah that would be 200%!
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Post by esshup on Nov 11, 2014 12:39:44 GMT -5
Steve, I agree with what you said. I switched to Barnes for whitetails because the majority of places that I hunt I can't pick and choose what distance the deer will show up. I could have one at 10 yds, or 200 yds. I've gound that at the speeds that I'm shoving bullets out of the barrel (I like speed, but won't sacrafice accuracy for speed) the cup and core bullets (lead/copper) usually won't hold together for a exit hole if the deer is close. Some bullet manufacturers if pressed, will tell you the impact velocity of the bullets are designed for. In my .50 cal Savage Muzzleloader, I use Hornady 250g SST bullets. I was told they have an upper impact threshold of 2400 fps, and they are leaving the muzzle in the mid 2300 fps range. Some guys that were shooting them much faster had them act as a varmint bullet on deer when impact velocities were near 3000 fps, i.e. not much penetration before going to pieces.
I also think that the Barnes TSX is too tough of a bullet for those smaller deer unless pushed to uber impact velocity.
I found out that with the Barnes bullets, they need to impact liquid to expand. I've shot them into sand and had 0 expansion (aside from the holowpoint being plugged with sand, it could have been cleaned off and shot again - this was a ML Barnes bullet), while at the same distance and same velocity into a gallon milk jug caused them to fully expand.
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Post by esshup on Nov 11, 2014 12:44:19 GMT -5
Medway USA.
100 Sierra .308" 168g Matchking bullets $34.99 50 Barnes .308" 168g Tipped TSX bullets $37.99
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Post by HuntMeister on Nov 11, 2014 12:46:39 GMT -5
Yep, recovering an all copper bullet is a rare event for me! Dad shot a buck a few years ago with one of those bucket mouth Barnes ML bullets. The buck was standing next to a small creek that had some water in it. The buck went down right there in the creek. When we got him up out of the creek I just happen to look down and his bullet was laying there sparkling in the stream.
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Post by sakorifle on Nov 11, 2014 14:09:26 GMT -5
Greetings Well I like my bang and flop bullets, quicker they go down the better especially if they run and head into dense wet Sitka spruce and I have to follow them. The 123grn gamehead sako bullet is such a bullet on roe, bang flop collect. I have never found a bullet in a British animal including red deer, they exit with a hole half the size of my fist, no extreme ranges mind. Two hundred or there abouts. But being a government body I can only assume they want copper then ban lead for everything, who knows. Everyone to there own though, that is what makes this community good. Regards Billy
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Post by sakorifle on Nov 11, 2014 14:13:06 GMT -5
Greetings Well I like my bang and flop bullets, quicker they go down the better especially if they run and head into dense wet Sitka spruce and I have to follow them. The 123grn gamehead sako bullet is such a bullet on roe, bang flop collect. I have never found a bullet in a British animal including red deer, they exit with a hole half the size of my fist, no extreme ranges mind. Two hundred or there abouts. But being a government body I can only assume they want copper then ban lead for everything, who knows. Everyone to there own though, that is what makes this community good. Regards Billy
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Post by omegahunter on Nov 13, 2014 7:48:32 GMT -5
Greetings They are Barnes tipped with tsx powehead11 bullets. 165grn. Well he also says much the same, if it zips through they don't go far, I cannot help thinking that the bullets they are trying are much too heavy for little roe deer. Perhaps a lighter faster one would of been more appropriate Anyway the trials are on. Are these bullets a lot more expensive over there as they are here? almost double the price of lead over here. Regards Billy I don't know about loaded ammo, but right now the Barnes are double the price of cup/lead core bullets as reloading components.
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