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Post by whiteoak on Jun 8, 2011 11:39:10 GMT -5
I see lots of guys that want 150's or better, but will kill 125's. It's a sign that they haven't matured fully in the natural progression. Peer pressure just won't allow them to come up empty, so they lower their standards, never knowing if the 150 was just behind the next tree and heading their way. I agree about maturing. When I decided to "trophy hunt" only 20 years ago it was the hardest thing in the world to let a 125 inch deer walk. The first 3 or 4 years I didn't and was always thinking I should have let that one go another year. Finally after some time I could let the 125" deer walk and now 20 years later shooting a 125" deer never even crosses my mind even on the last day of season in the last 5 minutes of my final hunt of the year, he grows another year and probably two If it's up to me and of course, God willing. Buck tags don't taste all that bad once you get used to them.
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Post by Sasquatch on Jun 8, 2011 13:48:41 GMT -5
I watched and passed on multiple 140s last yr but thats just me Well there you go. They will be 150's this year. A proven way to increase antler size. It's pretty simple folks. Hunters that are truly wanting a trophy class buck will not shoot a small one. If a hunter just wants meat, yes I would prefer for them to shoot a doe, but that's not my call. If he takes a basket rack 6 pointer I'll shake his had and congratulate him just the same. I will never tell another hunter what to shoot. I expect the same in return. That's a pretty fair attitude....live and let live. I can't sit for days and pass every doe that goes by. I don't mind if some other dude does, as long as he doesn't look down his nose at me. One thing I'm not sure about is that every 140's class deer gets any bigger....I've seen a lot of big, heavy bucks at check stations that wouldn't even score P&Y, let alone 140, yet were obviously mature. I think seed companies and the hunting industry has sold us this idea that every deer keeps growing bigger antlers indefinately until the day it dies, eventually ending up a B&C deer. I just don't think that's the case. I've also seen other hunters judge age by antler size way too much...even on this site. Folks will post deer that are obviously over three years old but with 120-ish racks and there will be 15 posts insisting it's "2.5 years old." Just my observation. Charles Alsheimer, who I'd certainly regard as an expert, said this about expectations: "When hunters ask me what kind of bucks they can expect to see in places like western Canada and Texas, I tell them not to base their goals on what they read in magazines or see on television. Be realistic and try to find out what the average size is for bucks in a given area. I believe a realistic expectation for hunts in the best deer habitat in North America is 140 B&C. The bottom line is this: considering all the stress factors that weigh on a deer herd, it is difficult to find 150-inch bucks in the wild. In many places, few, if any, exist." www.charliealsheimer.com/ca/articles/art_frombuttons.html
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Post by mrfixit on Jun 8, 2011 14:14:05 GMT -5
One thing I'm not sure about is that every 140's class deer gets any bigger....I've seen a lot of big, heavy bucks at check stations that wouldn't even score P&Y, let alone 140, yet were obviously mature. I think seed companies and the hunting industry has sold us this idea that every deer keeps growing bigger antlers indefinately until the day it dies, eventually ending up a B&C deer. I just don't think that's the case. I agree with you 100%. I've let bucks pass then seen the same buck the next year and wish I had killed him the year before. I've also let them walk and never seen them again, ever. And there is always the proverbial one you shoot and wish you had let them go another year. It all boils down to nothing but a giant crap shoot and luck.
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Post by countrystyle56 on Jun 8, 2011 14:34:13 GMT -5
Whitetail bucks have a rack that grows progressively each year, then peaks and then starts to decline each year after that peak. The thick racked bucks that wouldn't make p&y were most likely bucks past their peak that have started the decline. Mass is usually the last thing a declining buck losses. Age should ALWAYS be judged by other things than antler size.
As far as this thread topic goes, I really wish Indiana would model everything about their deer season after Illinois! They have it right over there. From either sex tags to the season dates to the shorter gun seasons. It is good for buck to doe ratio (either sex tags and not feeling like you have to kill a buck) and Trophy hunting (shorter gun season/peak of the rut gun season). Just my opinion.
As far as odds of getting a shot at a trophy, A hunter gets out of a hunt what they put in to it. If you put in the long hours in the stand, only hunt the stands with the perfect wind, put in your time in the offseason scouting and managing your property(if you are so lucky to own), and exercise the self control it takes to allow a 130 inch buck to pass within range, Then your chances of seeing that trophy are pretty good.
The problem is, most hunters don't have what it takes to do all of those things. They find it easier to just come on a board like this and proclaim that there aren't any big bucks in Indiana. Or shoot a buck that is well below the standards they set for themselves at the beginning of the year.
To all their own, but don't kid yourself into thinking the bucks aren't there. They are! You just have to be smarter than them.
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Post by Sasquatch on Jun 8, 2011 14:54:20 GMT -5
Whitetail bucks have a rack that grows progressively each year, then peaks and then starts to decline each year after that peak. The thick racked bucks that wouldn't make p&y were most likely bucks past their peak that have started the decline. Mass is usually the last thing a declining buck losses. Age should ALWAYS be judged by other things than antler size. So where is that peak...160? 170? 300? If few bucks anywhere reach 170", and records certainly indicate that... then it stands to reason 150" is pretty darn big and 140 very nice. It also stands to reason that many deer top out significantly smaller than 150.As far as this thread topic goes, I really wish Indiana would model everything about their deer season after Illinois! They have it right over there. From either sex tags to the season dates to the shorter gun seasons. It is good for buck to doe ratio (either sex tags and not feeling like you have to kill a buck) and Trophy hunting (shorter gun season/peak of the rut gun season). Just my opinion. As far as odds of getting a shot at a trophy, A hunter gets out of a hunt what they put in to it. If you put in the long hours in the stand, only hunt the stands with the perfect wind, put in your time in the offseason scouting and managing your property(if you are so lucky to own), and exercise the self control it takes to allow a 130 inch buck to pass within range, Then your chances of seeing that trophy are pretty good. The problem is, most hunters don't have what it takes to do all of those things. They find it easier to just come on a board like this and proclaim that there aren't any big bucks in Indiana. Or shoot a buck that is well below the standards they set for themselves at the beginning of the year. I believe that there are plenty of big bucks in Indiana, but far fewer than people believe, especially in the 150 and up range. Just because you see a 140 inch deer this year doesn't mean he'll be 150 next year.To all their own, but don't kid yourself into thinking the bucks aren't there. They are! You just have to be smarter than them.
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Post by countrystyle56 on Jun 8, 2011 15:17:33 GMT -5
A bucks peak relys mostly on genetics. I am no expert, but I would guess an average 8pt peaks around 135, 10pt around 155, 12pt around 170. That is just my guestimate and an average. There will always be exceptions controlled by genetics and nutrition.
I don't assume a 140 is gonna be a 150 the next year. Too many factors in a deers life to assume anything. But, there are more 150 plus in Indiana than you think. A lot of bucks that get to be that age become mainly nocturnal. That is why the rut is the time when the most get killed. The urge to breed is more powerful than their survival instincts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 18:12:10 GMT -5
Study has shown that IF a buck survives until he is 2.5 yrs. old, he is most likely going to die of old age than other factors. His chance of being killed goes down each year that he ages. And not all of them will continue the risking breeding ritual that puts them at risk of neing killed.
IMO, there are a lot more 150+ deer in Indiana than hunters think there are, but they don't get seen often and few make it into the harvest logs because of their nature and abilities to avoid trouble.
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Post by mrfixit on Jun 8, 2011 18:24:24 GMT -5
Genetics is but a small contributor. Even if every single buck in this state had the genetics to be a 200 class buck only a select few would make it to 170 and maybe 1/10 of 1 percent would make it the 185 and maybe only 1 in a million would make it to actually becoming a 200 class buck. Everything single thing in a fair chase bucks life has to be absolutely perfect for them to even approach 170 or above. Yep they are out there but they aren't hiding behind every tree and no matter how many restrictions we levy against the average hunter they still aren't going to be behind every tree. Even if we mirrored the anti gun seasons of Illinois there would only be maybe half a dozen counties in this state that would have what's needed to put out 170 class or better deer on a semi regular basis or basically what we already enjoy so why change?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 18:43:26 GMT -5
I disagree. If you look at Illinois, every single county has at least one B & C entry. There no logical explanation to show that Indiana could not produce one in every county as well. To say it's not a possibility simply isn't true.
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Post by mrfixit on Jun 8, 2011 19:33:37 GMT -5
It really don't matter all that much to me. I hate being rushed and all the big antlers in the world isn't worth being rushed through something. We already get rushed through gun season so fast most people don't even remember it when it's over. I'm getting old and just downright tired of the huge rush gun season brings. I'd like to hunt just as many times as I do now just over a longer period so if I wake up and it's raining like it was two years ago on opening morning I could just go back to bed. I get to go gun hunting 6 times or so and God forbid something happens or there's a family function it get's cut to 5 then 4. If I had to buy a tag I wouldn't even worry with it. Ain't no antlers in the world worth all the crap we put up with now and a few are always wanting to shorten it more because of the poor pitiful bow only hunters. Guess I'm getting old and cantankerous and I've already killed my share of big bucks and I sure didn't need the state to mandate one for me. Did I mention I'm getting old and tired of being rushed for no good reason ? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 19:44:54 GMT -5
I agree, the current season structure is good and allows a choice. It's not broke and only needs a smal tweak to make it better. With the new proposals in place, it'll provide more choice and make it even better.
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Post by countrystyle56 on Jun 8, 2011 20:05:08 GMT -5
The Illinois seaon doesn't rush you as much as you think it would. It actually makes you into the hunter most of us wish we could be all the time. Because you only have 3 days to hunt, it makes it much easier to stay in the stand all day. In my opinion, its easier to plan for a 3 day deer hunting weekend, than it is to try to fit deer hunting into our busy lives for 2 weeks.
But none the less, I think there are bigger issues than the season length. If I could change only 1 thing about Indiana deer hunting, it would be changing to an either sex tag. The buck only tag just baffels me!!
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Post by Woody Williams on Jun 8, 2011 20:53:08 GMT -5
................If I could change only 1 thing about Indiana deer hunting, it would be changing to an either sex tag. The buck only tag just baffels me!! I think that would qualify as a "tweak".. Let the guy out there the last day fill that tag with a doe instead of a forky..
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Post by mrfixit on Jun 9, 2011 5:38:41 GMT -5
The Illinois seaon doesn't rush you as much as you think it would. It actually makes you into the hunter most of us wish we could be all the time. Because you only have 3 days to hunt, it makes it much easier to stay in the stand all day. In my opinion, its easier to plan for a 3 day deer hunting weekend, than it is to try to fit deer hunting into our busy lives for 2 weeks. ! The problem with that is if that 3 day weekend fell during a week when I was "on call" then I could kiss my gun hunting goodbye for that year. It ain't like we could call a state holiday and forbid work and suspend other parts of life for three days. Illinois is as about anti-gun as a state can be so it suits the politicians in Chicago just fine that joe hunter only has three days to run around with a gun because if he had more time than that he might consider a revolution or something. Contrary to popular belief their three day gun season isn't in place just to grow big bucks. ;D
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Post by boonechaser on Jun 9, 2011 7:50:19 GMT -5
Indiana has produced some dandy buck's in the last few year's and will continue to do so. Indiana's liberal gun season won't let us compete with Illinois on number of big buck's killed but I am not sure that isn't a good thing. We here in Indiana enjoy alot of day's afield plus have a better than average deer herd IMO so there is plenty of oppurtunity.
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Post by 76chevy on Jun 9, 2011 8:06:00 GMT -5
You make some very good points. I agree with the scheduling of the 3 day season. I personally would love to have a 3 day gun season ;D Unlike some who still refuse to admit it, I am admittedly a selfish bow hunter ;D I just enjoy hunting with a bow more than a gun... and like having the woods to myself.A couple of properties I hunt on never have another soul on them until the gun opener, then the gun hunters come out of the woodwork for 2 weeks. Then they disappear until next year. I want what is best for the management of the deer herd though, not what is best for ME The Illinois seaon doesn't rush you as much as you think it would. It actually makes you into the hunter most of us wish we could be all the time. Because you only have 3 days to hunt, it makes it much easier to stay in the stand all day. In my opinion, its easier to plan for a 3 day deer hunting weekend, than it is to try to fit deer hunting into our busy lives for 2 weeks. But none the less, I think there are bigger issues than the season length. If I could change only 1 thing about Indiana deer hunting, it would be changing to an either sex tag. The buck only tag just baffels me!!
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Post by 76chevy on Jun 9, 2011 8:07:05 GMT -5
yes, this is (or should be) an easy fix ................If I could change only 1 thing about Indiana deer hunting, it would be changing to an either sex tag. The buck only tag just baffels me!! I think that would qualify as a "tweak".. Let the guy out there the last day fill that tag with a doe instead of a forky..
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Post by cambygsp on Jun 9, 2011 11:09:26 GMT -5
I am not sure, but don't Illionis kill just as many if not more buck deer in their short gun seasons as we do in our two week season?
How would killing just as many buck deer in a shorter amount of time solve anything?
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Post by Woody Williams on Jun 9, 2011 11:39:00 GMT -5
I am not sure, but don't Illionis kill just as many if not more buck deer in their short gun seasons as we do in our two week season? How would killing just as many buck deer in a shorter amount of time solve anything? I's a two buck state too.. even two with a gun..one with a slug gun and one with a MZ.
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Post by trapperdave on Jun 9, 2011 11:47:51 GMT -5
just somewhat curious, whats the "trophy" deer in Indiana PER SQUARE MILE in the books compared to other states PER SQUARE MILE?
more of an apples to apples comparison than saying state x has this many entries. State x may be texas which is several Indianas in size....and Indiana is the SMALLEST state east of the Smokeys
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