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Post by cambygsp on Oct 5, 2005 4:29:28 GMT -5
Picked this up off the legislation section.
The Natural Resources Study Committee is discussing the feasibility of adding Pistol Caliber Rifles as legal firearms for deer.
"What Sen Waterman is looking to do is to make it legal to hunt deer with rifles (mostly lever actions) chambered in pistol calibers. These calibers are generally the ones cowboy action shooters use which include .45 colt, .38 special, and .44 mag., .44 special, .357 mag. Except for the .38 special, all of these calibers are legal for deer hunting with a pistol, so, in a rifle, would be sufficiently powerful (velocity gain in a longer barreled rifle in generally in the neighborhood of 10-20 %)."
Any thoughts on this?
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Post by mbogo on Oct 5, 2005 6:02:06 GMT -5
Yes, a few comments. I think it makes a lot of sense and is a step in the right direction. These rifles are certainly a much better choice for children than a .410 and I'm sure several adults, myself included, would like the opportunity to use them. However, I don't think the .38 special should be allowed even in a rifle. I would also like to see .41 mag, .480 Ruger, and .454 Casull added to the proposed list.
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Post by drs on Oct 5, 2005 6:37:20 GMT -5
Picked this up off the legislation section. The Natural Resources Study Committee is discussing the feasibility of adding Pistol Caliber Rifles as legal firearms for deer. "What Sen Waterman is looking to do is to make it legal to hunt deer with rifles (mostly lever actions) chambered in pistol calibers. These calibers are generally the ones cowboy action shooters use which include .45 colt, .38 special, and .44 mag., .44 special, .357 mag. Except for the .38 special, all of these calibers are legal for deer hunting with a pistol, so, in a rifle, would be sufficiently powerful (velocity gain in a longer barreled rifle in generally in the neighborhood of 10-20 %)." Any thoughts on this? I am very happy to see this legal issue of pistol cartridge use in rifles comming to light. I don't think the .38 special would be powerful enough for Deer but the other cartridges, you mention, are fine at 75 yards and under. Also what about bolt actions, pumps, single-shots and semi-auto rifles? They should be legal also, when chambered for these pistol cartridges. Keep us posted. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 5, 2005 6:44:46 GMT -5
I don't see there being all that much demand for the use of these weapons in the deer season.
With that said: I can't think of a negetive safety or biological reason to not allow them.
If it's not a safety issue or biological threat to the resource, then hunters should be allowed to choose!
My 870 slug gun w/scope has served me well for over 20 years.....I doubt I would change.
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Post by jajwrigh on Oct 5, 2005 7:21:59 GMT -5
I would also like to see .41 mag, .480 Ruger, and .454 Casull added to the proposed list. These are all very capable of taking a deer, so I would like to see this as well.
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Post by reynoldss on Oct 5, 2005 8:30:49 GMT -5
Why not, I would have a "good" reason to buy another gun. These rifles would be a much better choice for youth than a 410.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 5, 2005 8:34:20 GMT -5
I kind of doubt that these rifles would be restricted to the "cowboy style" lever actions only.
I would think it would have the calibers as the deciding factors.
The single shots were around before and a lot longer than the levers..
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Oct 5, 2005 8:36:18 GMT -5
I'm for it.
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Post by squirrelhunter on Oct 5, 2005 8:49:07 GMT -5
I don't think the 38 Special should be allowed.but the 41 mag,480 and 454 should be ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) .
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Post by mbogo on Oct 5, 2005 8:58:11 GMT -5
I doubt that as well. I could see NEF handi-rifles becoming very popular if this change is approved, especially with the ability to add a shotgun barrel for kids as they grow into it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 5, 2005 9:30:15 GMT -5
I doubt that as well. I could see NEF handi-rifles becoming very popular if this change is approved, especially with the ability to add a shotgun barrel for kids as they grow into it. I'd probably buy one myself... I'm always open to new things in hunting..
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Post by drs on Oct 5, 2005 9:48:07 GMT -5
I don't see there being all that much demand for the use of these weapons in the deer season. With that said: I can't think of a negetive safety or biological reason to not allow them. If it's not a safety issue or biological threat to the resource, then hunters should be allowed to choose! My 870 slug gun w/scope has served me well for over 20 years.....I doubt I would change. I must disagree. I bet that if the State of Indiana would legalize the use of Pistol Cartridges, like the .44 Mag, .41 Mag., .357, .454 and .44 Special; you'd see a great number of Deer Hunters "dump" their Slug firing Shotguns for rifles, in these chamberings.
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Post by mbogo on Oct 5, 2005 9:58:31 GMT -5
Same thing here. A lever action is already on my wish list so I would have some incentive to move that to the top.
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Post by drs on Oct 5, 2005 10:37:27 GMT -5
Simple Math & Economics would show that the great majority of "Gun" Hunters would choose the use of Pistol Cartridges in Rifles over Shotgun firing Sabot Ammo. Cost of .44 Magnum 240 grain soft point ammo is around $30 per box of 50. Also the .44 Magnum, and other pistol cartridges, can be reloaded. The cost of Saboted Shotgun Ammo is on average $12 per FIVE shells, and it cost almost that much to reload them too. So you guys do the math. Personally I burned up around $30 (15 shots) sighting in my 20 gauge Sabot slug gun.
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Post by tgrindlay on Oct 5, 2005 14:03:04 GMT -5
I'm against it. I've been shot at with slugs by deer hunters before (while goose hunting).
How far will a pistol caliber rifle bullet travel compared to a slug?
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Post by mbogo on Oct 5, 2005 14:21:17 GMT -5
A pistol caliber rifle bullet would not travel nearly as far as a saboted slug but somewhat farther than a foster type slug. Ballistically they aren't any different than what is currently legal.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 5, 2005 14:55:42 GMT -5
I'll be the first to admit I know next to nothing about rifles and deer hunting caliber pistols so I asked the question to another group that I am on. Here is what some of them said.
Keep in mind that these guys study this stuff..
From Tom C in Virginia...…
"Under Virginia law these would all be legal deer guns in counties where rifles are permitted (mostly west of the Blue Ridge, but also in some eastern ones). As weird as it seems, the .38 Special would NOT be legal to use in a handgun on deer (doesn't meet the minimum foot-pound requirement) but it IS legal in a rifle (because the only criterion for rifles is "caliber .23 or larger." A .32 S&W Short would be legal fired in a rifle!
While it is generally true that rifles produce more velocity than handguns in the same caliber, it isn't a universal rule. I'd prefer to see a minimum muzzle energy figure In VA, 350 f-p for handguns) for rifles using any of the above calibers. I would NOT allow the .38 Special on deer, nor anything smaller than 0.357" in pistol-calibered rifles. The rest are OK. They aren't but they'll certainly kill deer in the hands of a competent shooter, but there isn't much margin for error. If they're allowed in pistols now there is certainly no reason they shouldn't be allowed in rifles. A heck of a lot of deer have been killed with a .44-40 over the years.
Ohio has a specific list of handgun calibers permitted on deer, and I think mandates they be "straight walled cases" as well.
From Tim C…
"Woody-
The logic of this is lost on me. Generally the fish and game people set minimum requirements for firearms (and archery tackle) for hunting big game. Usually a minimum caliber (or broadhead diameter) and a minumum retained energy at a certain range are the standards to be met to be legal; the regulators thereby avoid a legal description of every potential cartridge/firearm combo that would meet their standards.
The real cowboy cartridge was the 44-40, a black powder load derived from the 44 rimfire used in the first lever actions (Henrys). The Model 73 Winchester is the classic 44-40 rifle, and plenty of deer were killed with them, but it was a puny loading and many better cartridges quickly followed. Smokeless powders didn't come around until the cowboys were about gone, near the turn of the century, and the ones that were left were likely to use a 30-30, 30-40, or a 300 Savage if they could get them.
The modern cowboy shooters are (mostly) using phony chamberings that weren't invented until the 1920s to 1950s. Even the 45 Colt was a blackpowder cartridge and is currently loaded with smokeless powder at very reduced charges so as not to blow up an old gun. Authenticity is not important to these modern recreationists as far as I can tell.
If pistol cartridges are already approved, I don't see why the same used in rifles shouldn't be allowed; but trying to describe legality by naming every cartridge and firearm possible is crazy. The law should require a level of performance and specifically name only those cartridges excluded, such as the 22 RF or 50 BMG.
From Tom R..
"With proper ammo they're excellent deer guns.
Some consideration of ammo selection has to be made. The more or less pointed lead bullet ammo, at low velocity used for cowboy competition probably won't perform correctly on game. Medium to light bullet, full power defensive ammo will also not necessarily perform well on game because from a long barreled gun with no cylinder gap the velocity will likely exceed the bullet's design parameters causing excessive expansion or even disintegration limiting penetration. With heavily jacketed bullets, loaded to magnum pistol velocity or a fraction more ... say 1350 - 1600 fps ... rifles firing pistol cartridges are excellent on deer sized game at modest ranges, say out to 125 or perhaps 150 yards.
I think those ammo choices should be left to the person, not made part of the law. "Foot pounds" requirements are going to backfire because some of the very worst ammo selections rank the best if all you look at is energy and not construction."
COMMENTS??
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Post by mbogo on Oct 5, 2005 15:01:59 GMT -5
All three replys seem pretty accurate to me. I believe many people call them "cowboy" carbines simply because of there use in SASS. This is a great resource for velocity and energy figures to use in comparison. www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgun.aspx
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Post by stykbow on Oct 5, 2005 18:57:58 GMT -5
I am all for it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 5, 2005 19:36:13 GMT -5
Another comment from my hunting group.
This one comes from New Zealand..
"Gidday Woody
As I have shot a lot of CAS (cowboy action shooting) in the past and hunted with my CAS rifle and shotgun (pistol not legal here) I can probably add something to this discussion.
I no longer shoot CAS so much (have gone back to IPSC) and this is not because they have prostituted the sport via the rule book but because the game has become a straight out drag race. Therein lies the problem for your legislators in dealing with the proposal.
To achieve speed and be competitive only .38 will be used (while it is CAS legal no one actually shoots .357) and the .38 loads are so light they will only just penetrate a cardboard or "ring" steel targets at 25m. I find it hard to imagine the average CAS shooter working up a special load for hunting.
That said I have hunted successfully with my CAS rifle. It is a Winchester 94 in .45LC 20" barrel (courtesy Goatskin). Lovely rifle.
Deadly up to 100m. Haven't had occasion to try it beyond that and wouldn't because I would worry about accuracy. It is sudden death on pigs (large) and red deer. My load is 250gn RNFP lead over 5.5gn Vitavhouri N320. That gives a muzzle velocity of around 950fps.
Incidentally, it is also my pistol load; muzzle velocity from the revolver is around 670fps.
I had worked up a hunting load using a Remington HP 250 (?) gn projectile. Can't remember the powder charge but it was chrono'd at about 1450fps. Anyway I never used that hunting load as the first time I took the rifle for a walk I mistakenly took the wrong ammo box (i.e. the std pistol loads) but that pistol load through my lovely Winchester delivered instant death to a very large pig and I do mean instant. So after that I kept it all simple and used my pistol load for everything.
So a pistol caliber CAS rifle would, in my opinion, be fine within the limits of its accuracy for deer up to mulie (?) size.
For what it is worth.
Regards
N "
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