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Post by jman46151 on Dec 12, 2023 10:36:15 GMT -5
The coin appraisal thread reminded me that I want to find an antique gun appraiser around Indy area. Anybody know of somewhere? I don't know much about older guns but supposedly it was used by a family member in the Civil War. It looks like an old Hawken to me. It's been a while since I looked at it but IIRC there's a name scribed on it. Not sure if it was the owner's name or maker.
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Post by stevein on Dec 12, 2023 13:38:01 GMT -5
The coin appraisal thread reminded me that I want to find an antique gun appraiser around Indy area. Anybody know of somewhere? I don't know much about older guns but supposedly it was used by a family member in the Civil War. It looks like an old Hawken to me. It's been a while since I looked at it but IIRC there's a name scribed on it. Not sure if it was the owner's name or maker. If it looks like a Hawken it is very doubtful it was used in the war of Southern insurrection. Post some pics and I can try to help. Also if you know where your grandfather served and enlisted there ways to find what arms he would have used. If he was Confederate there is a greater possibility he carried a personal weapon. In the last month I have bought a George Koop swivel rifle in poor condition and a C Siebert target rifle. Kopp is from Pennsyvania and has an early rifle in Kindig's book. It needs a lot of restoration. The Siebert is from Columbus Ohio. In both cases the lock and barrel are stamped with their names. In most areas the makers name is on the top flat somewhere between the rear sight and breech. Starting around the end of the Rev War locks were imported in abundance and later all parts but the stock. Some locks were stamped with the importer's name others were stamped with sellers names. Others could be bought with no name and were stamped by the gun builder's name. Owners names are rare on ML guns. Most all pictures I have seen are engraved on patchboxes. Some are in the same hand as the rest of the engraving others by a different hang. My generic SxS Birmingham, England import has the Initials LR engraved in script on the thumb piece. Like today what an owner may have done can be completly different like carved somewhere on the stock... And as with everything muzzle loading these are general "rules". I can't help much on an appraiser name in Indiana. In February the is a muzzle loading show at Noblesville where you will be able to get some help. A makers name on the rifle will help value somewhat. DO NOT take steel wool, scotch brite emery cloth or any abrasive to the signature trying to enhance it. Chalk or a rubbing are much better ways and do not destroy years of patina leaving an ugly scar on the barrel. |
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Post by jman46151 on Dec 12, 2023 15:11:20 GMT -5
The coin appraisal thread reminded me that I want to find an antique gun appraiser around Indy area. Anybody know of somewhere? I don't know much about older guns but supposedly it was used by a family member in the Civil War. It looks like an old Hawken to me. It's been a while since I looked at it but IIRC there's a name scribed on it. Not sure if it was the owner's name or maker. If it looks like a Hawken it is very doubtful it was used in the war of Southern insurrection. Post some pics and I can try to help. Also if you know where your grandfather served and enlisted there ways to find what arms he would have used. If he was Confederate there is a greater possibility he carried a personal weapon. In the last month I have bought a George Koop swivel rifle in poor condition and a C Siebert target rifle. Kopp is from Pennsyvania and has an early rifle in Kindig's book. It needs a lot of restoration. The Siebert is from Columbus Ohio. In both cases the lock and barrel are stamped with their names. In most areas the makers name is on the top flat somewhere between the rear sight and breech. Starting around the end of the Rev War locks were imported in abundance and later all parts but the stock. Some locks were stamped with the importer's name others were stamped with sellers names. Others could be bought with no name and were stamped by the gun builder's name. Owners names are rare on ML guns. Most all pictures I have seen are engraved on patchboxes. Some are in the same hand as the rest of the engraving others by a different hang. My generic SxS Birmingham, England import has the Initials LR engraved in script on the thumb piece. Like today what an owner may have done can be completly different like carved somewhere on the stock... And as with everything muzzle loading these are general "rules". I can't help much on an appraiser name in Indiana. In February the is a muzzle loading show at Noblesville where you will be able to get some help. A makers name on the rifle will help value somewhat. DO NOT take steel wool, scotch brite emery cloth or any abrasive to the signature trying to enhance it. Chalk or a rubbing are much better ways and do not destroy years of patina leaving an ugly scar on the barrel. I'll try to get a couple of pictures of it tonight. I've had it for a couple of years now and haven't got it out of the safe. The only reason I am wondering about the value is to know whether I should keep it locked up or put it on display. I know that a lot of antiques are worth more in their natural state. As far as condition, I know it doesn't have the original ramrod and the stock has a serious crack in it. It's amazing that guys used to pack those things around with that long, heavy barrel. |
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Post by stevein on Dec 12, 2023 16:10:57 GMT -5
I remembered Mike from Flintlocks LLC. His Dad set up as you walked in the gates at Friendship. Mike took over the business when his dad passed. He is my goto guy for shotgun wads. Nineveh is not that far from Indy. Give him a call or stop by his shop, the address, number and hours are on the web site. myflintlock.com/ |
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Post by esshup on Dec 12, 2023 23:40:16 GMT -5
Maybe I've watched too many Antique Roadshow shows, but also ask them for an insurance value.
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Post by jman46151 on Mar 7, 2024 22:58:20 GMT -5
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Post by ms660 on Mar 8, 2024 1:02:13 GMT -5
That is a fine-looking weapon. It's a shame the stock is cracked.
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Post by stevein on Mar 8, 2024 4:08:35 GMT -5
A nice example of an Ohio half stock rifle. It has typical wear and tear for a gun of the period. Most caplocks I see have the same corrosion to the hammer cup and breech area from the caps. A great example of curly maple showing the grain from whatever stain they used. This one has a "patent" breech and bolster which is stronger than the drum and nipple setup.
It was refinished some time in it's life. The wood screw holding the tail of the lock in needs to be browned to match the rest of the screws if you want.
To find one in comparable condition as a replacement I would guess value between $350 to $550.
The crack is not where I would expect it. Usually I see them where the lock bolt comes through. That is in an area of the least wood and most stress. That crack is forward and below the lock bolt. Use great care if you ever try to break it down as it could cause the break to get worse.
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Post by Pinoc on Mar 8, 2024 7:15:10 GMT -5
That crack looks like someone had to use it as a club at some point? Maybe missed the bear that first shot?
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Post by jman46151 on Mar 8, 2024 11:36:02 GMT -5
That crack looks like someone had to use it as a club at some point? Maybe missed the bear that first shot? That was what I was wondering. It looks like it's been repaired once before. A 308 bullet would fit in the barrel but a 350 legend would not, so I'm assuming it's either a .32 cal or .36. Seems like the timeframe fits the story. |
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Post by stevein on Mar 8, 2024 12:32:44 GMT -5
That crack looks like someone had to use it as a club at some point? Maybe missed the bear that first shot? That was what I was wondering. It looks like it's been repaired once before. A 308 bullet would fit in the barrel but a 350 legend would not, so I'm assuming it's either a .32 cal or .36. Seems like the timeframe fits the story. The majority later period Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Illinois and Kentucky will be somewhere between .34 and .40. The big calibers were not needed. Several rifles from this region have been found out west with a .50 or larger bore. They were often bored and rifled on the trip west. Some even carry the Hawken name. Also many were bored out smooth for using shot. The breech plug being the limiting factor on a bore job. The gunsmiths bought barrels just like we do today only their barrels needed some work on the bore and rifling cut. Since the barrels were of soft iron or steel they often required periodic "freshening". A process where the gunsmith made a cast of the bore and set a single point in and recut the grooves until they cleaned up. He then cast another guide and set another cutter in it and cut the lands. Then cut the mold to fit the fresh barrel. INMO most of the carried into battle tales are just wrong. The fact that it was made in Cincinnati may have some factor as if I am not mistaken there was an all out effort to stop Morgan on his raid through Indiana ending around Cinn, O so it could have been carried out to that. There are 4 reasons I say this. - The military likes everything to be uniform. They supplied the ammo and caps for the muskets and pistols.
- The general condition of the gun is just too good, even factoring in the refinish. Arms used in battle take a terrible beating. Generally they were made much more heavy duty than civilian models.
- There is no provision for a bayonet.
- No steel ramrod. The ramrod and bayonet were requirements dating to the Rev War.
There is no really good way to prove or disprove he carried it though. Odds are he would have carried a Springfield or Endfield .58 caliber rifled musket. |
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Post by steiny on Mar 8, 2024 15:05:34 GMT -5
It's worth $10, I'll give you $15.
You can thank me later
Neat rifle! Let us know what you learn about it.
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Post by esshup on Mar 8, 2024 17:10:55 GMT -5
Great looking gun. The stock is fixable, I bet it could be glued and pinned back together, but the gun will have to be taken apart to do it.
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Post by stevein on Mar 9, 2024 12:33:58 GMT -5
Tip for those that may ever do this kind of fix. Next time you have a blood draw have them give you the band they use for a tourniquet. Works great for clamping this kind of break.
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Post by esshup on Mar 9, 2024 14:11:11 GMT -5
Tip for those that may ever do this kind of fix. Next time you have a blood draw have them give you the band they use for a tourniquet. Works great for clamping this kind of break. That works great! Good suggestion! I bought a 5' piece of surgical tubing from Amazon. Brownells has brass pins that you can drill the stock, coat the crack and pin with Acuraglas from Brownells or 5 minute clear epoxy. The pins can be cut to length so they are a wee bit shorter than the hole easily. Use a bit of wood powder from the stock mixed in with the Acuraglas where the pin goes and you will never see the fix. Here's a before and after (before I cleaned out the checkering). It was dropped and broke the stock.     |
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