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Post by Ahawkeye on Dec 11, 2022 19:37:15 GMT -5
I do not have my Muzzleloader right now, my dad has it and I know there are a lot of things you will need to know to help me out but I'm going to describe what is happening and maybe you guys can give me some advice.
I have never shot a deer with my muzzleloader, I have never had the opportunity to. Dad has shot two deer with my muzzleloader we use two pyridex pellets right now I can't tell you the grain but together they are probably 3/4 of an inch long. I want to say I use a 250 grain Sabot this is a 50 caliber muzzleloader. The first deer dad shot with this gun he did not get a pass through and found the deer by sheer luck because he was hunting a very thick vegetated area he had zero blood. He smelled the buck and and followed his nose until he found it. The bullet was buried in the opposite shoulder and did not penetrate the hide.
Fast forward 5 years to today dad was using my muzzleloader with the same setup and shot a doe, he knocked her over her legs were in the air wiggling like a dying cockroach, dad Reloaded and while he was reloading the old primer got stuck in the trigger assembly and it took him a minute or two to get that dislodged. When dad looked up the doe was gone. Dad shot that deer at noon and looked all the way till dark he was hunting the same area that he shot the buck in 5 years ago there was no blood. This makes me think that there was no pass through again. Today's shot was 40 yards broadside. I can remember 5 years ago it didn't seem like the bullet mushroomed a lot but it did mushroom some.
I'm wondering if my powder is enough and that is why I'm not getting pass through shots or maybe it's the bullet? I am using Thompson Center brand bullets I believe they are 250 grain. For what it's worth they have a blue tip and a yellow wad. When I get this gun back I am going to give you guys all the specs that I can find on bullet, powder, and gun and see what you guys think. Maybe I need to put it on a Chrono and find out my muzzle velocity before I can make any positive changes. I am very disappointed that this has happened twice from this gun. At first I thought it was dumb luck now I think it's more than that. What do you guys think is going on?
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Post by freedomhunter on Dec 11, 2022 19:48:52 GMT -5
I've had that happen with the old cva 295 grain hollow points. Big old doe same type of shot just no blood. We ended up finding her in the corner of a pond a few days later. I should have known to look there. Tracks are your friend if you can possibly try to follow them it can be tough though. Then other times that bullet did fine and drt so idk think if you hit them high it can cause problems.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Dec 11, 2022 19:52:42 GMT -5
I've had that happen with the old cva 295 grain hollow points. Big old doe same type of shot just no blood. We ended up finding her in the corner of a pond a few days later. I should have known to look there. Tracks are your friend if you can possibly try to follow them it can be tough though. Then other times that bullet did fine and drt so idk think if you hit them high it can cause problems. I agree tracks are your friend in this particular area the tracks and trails zigzag and criss cross and he couldn't keep the track. This is very disheartening this was to be the last deer of the season for us. I'm not saying it's impossible but hunting public ground nothing is taken for granted so any shot especially one at 40 yards broadside in the clear is almost sacred. He's going back out tomorrow but to lose this deer is very disappointing. |
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Post by beermaker on Dec 11, 2022 20:01:31 GMT -5
When I had a ML, I used two pellets for practice and three for hunting. There was not enough change in trajectory to make any difference at the distances I was able to shoot in the woods.
I never did use the fancy pointed sabots. I think it was TC that made a so called practice bullet. My TC Omega shot those things as every bit as well as I needed. I harvested a good number of deer with that gun & load and never once had to do much tracking much less lost one.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Dec 11, 2022 20:05:57 GMT -5
When I had a ML, I used two pellets for practice and three for hunting. There was not enough change in trajectory to make any difference at the distances I was able to shoot in the woods. I never did use the fancy pointed sabots. I think it was TC that made a so called practice bullet. My TC Omega shot those things as every bit as well as I needed. I harvested a good number of deer with that gun & load and never once had to do much tracking much less lost one. That's what I'm thinking maybe we need to jump to 3 pellets??? However me being me I would practice the same set up and shoot 3 pellets as well. |
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Post by whitetaildave24 on Dec 11, 2022 20:06:28 GMT -5
There can be a multitude of things that can cause that in the setup. I will say once I went to Barnes bullets in my muzzleloader I have never looked back. I’ve only had one doe run and that was only like ten yards at a park hunt. Every other deer has dropped where it stood and that’s the way I like it. Hopefully you can figure out the issue and move forward from there with better results.
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Post by M4Madness on Dec 11, 2022 20:07:39 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about the loss of a deer. While some pellet manufacturers offer different weight pellets, by far most pellets weigh 50 grains each. So most likely your dad is using 100 grains, which is plenty. Has your dad checked the rifle's zero to rule that aspect out?
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Post by titanium700 on Dec 11, 2022 20:41:43 GMT -5
Barnes bullets by far.
I’ve got a ton of those huge hollow pointed 250’s and a large amount of the 300’s
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Post by Ahawkeye on Dec 11, 2022 21:01:49 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about the loss of a deer. While some pellet manufacturers offer different weight pellets, by far most pellets weigh 50 grains each. So most likely your dad is using 100 grains, which is plenty. Has your dad checked the rifle's zero to rule that aspect out? We checked zero at beginning of gun season, not saying something couldn't happen but I feel we are good there. It is topped with a Leo scope. I trust the set up and as far as I know the gun has not been mishandled. Anything can happen though. I agree probably 100 gr. of powder. |
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Post by Ahawkeye on Dec 11, 2022 21:05:38 GMT -5
I believe I will be looking at Barnes going forward.
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Post by onebentarrow on Dec 11, 2022 22:20:33 GMT -5
I would check to see if pellets are the 30 gr or 50 gr. If 30 you are only shooting 60 gr versus 100. 60 will kill a deer but penatration will suffer as well as expansion. If that is not the case I would switch bullets to the barns. I will try to post a couple pictures of recovered bullets     The first bullet is a barns250, the second is a Hornady 240. Both shot out of the same gun (mine) same powder same primer specific sabots designed for each bullet. Both recovered from deer shot at long distance and quartering away both had apex 18 to 20 in of penatration and were found just under skin on opposite side of impact with skin pulled away from meat. Notice the lead bullet has lost its copper jacket,thus if it had hit large bone would have been prone to break up. I was in a hunt camp and saw a barns 300 gr that was shot thru the rump of a deer clear to shoulder with a muzzeloader and it looked just like the one in the picture. To me the barns leave a large wound channel with out excessive meat damage,good blood trail and 99.5% of the time I get a pass thru. I even got a pass thru on a 200 lb and 300 lb black bear the 400lb bear was quartering and was lodged under skin after 25 in of penatration. Onebentarrow Edit. Another thing. If you are using a side lock I have herd that the pellets do not work well and need to be used in an inline. |
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Post by elmo on Dec 11, 2022 22:42:18 GMT -5
So what bullet is the top 2 pictures and what is the bottom 2?
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Post by onebentarrow on Dec 11, 2022 22:56:23 GMT -5
So what bullet is the top 2 pictures and what is the bottom 2? I have problems with posting so I post typed responce then go get picture ready then back to edit post to post picture then do again for each picture. I added more info after I posted pictures. Story for the delay. Hope this helps |
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Post by Ahawkeye on Dec 11, 2022 23:20:26 GMT -5
Bullet recovered from the buck looked kind of like the Hornady shown above. These pictures are worth 1000 words. Barnes will get my business going forward. I'm about 90% sure pellets are 50 gr. I just can't variety without seeing the box.
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Post by esshup on Dec 12, 2022 0:04:14 GMT -5
I do not have my Muzzleloader right now, my dad has it and I know there are a lot of things you will need to know to help me out but I'm going to describe what is happening and maybe you guys can give me some advice. I have never shot a deer with my muzzleloader, I have never had the opportunity to. Dad has shot two deer with my muzzleloader we use two pyridex pellets right now I can't tell you the grain but together they are probably 3/4 of an inch long. I want to say I use a 250 grain Sabot this is a 50 caliber muzzleloader. The first deer dad shot with this gun he did not get a pass through and found the deer by sheer luck because he was hunting a very thick vegetated area he had zero blood. He smelled the buck and and followed his nose until he found it. The bullet was buried in the opposite shoulder and did not penetrate the hide. Fast forward 5 years to today dad was using my muzzleloader with the same setup and shot a doe, he knocked her over her legs were in the air wiggling like a dying cockroach, dad Reloaded and while he was reloading the old primer got stuck in the trigger assembly and it took him a minute or two to get that dislodged. When dad looked up the doe was gone. Dad shot that deer at noon and looked all the way till dark he was hunting the same area that he shot the buck in 5 years ago there was no blood. This makes me think that there was no pass through again. Today's shot was 40 yards broadside. I can remember 5 years ago it didn't seem like the bullet mushroomed a lot but it did mushroom some. I'm wondering if my powder is enough and that is why I'm not getting pass through shots or maybe it's the bullet? I am using Thompson Center brand bullets I believe they are 250 grain. For what it's worth they have a blue tip and a yellow wad. When I get this gun back I am going to give you guys all the specs that I can find on bullet, powder, and gun and see what you guys think. Maybe I need to put it on a Chrono and find out my muzzle velocity before I can make any positive changes. I am very disappointed that this has happened twice from this gun. At first I thought it was dumb luck now I think it's more than that. What do you guys think is going on? I would chrono that load before jumping to any conclusions. I used that exact same bullet in my .50 cal Savage and I can't remember the number of deer that fell down dead with it. I would have to say a very high % were pass thru's and I know I was running that bullet around 2,100-2,200 fps. The only one that I remember NOT passing thru was right after I changed powder lots and the impact was close to 180 yds from where I was standing (using trigger sticks and leaning on a tree). It turns out that the new lot of powder was only pushing the bullet around 1,900 fps MV. I upped the powder charge using the chrony and went back to pass thru's again. |
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Post by onebentarrow on Dec 12, 2022 0:44:42 GMT -5
As a side note. My gun will NOT shoot 300 gr bullets worth a darn only 250s. About all 250s will shoot 1 in groups at 100 yds the about all 300 are about 4 no matter the amount of powder sabot or primer.
If you find a combo that shoots to your satisfaction do not change anything as it can effect point of impact and size of group.
I personally like loose powder because I can work up a load in 10 gr increments in my gun that shoots the best.
Onebentarrow
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Post by BOBinIN on Dec 12, 2022 6:59:32 GMT -5
Hunter xmax,
Where are you located? There may be a member nearby with a chrono and experience with muzzleloaders that is willing to get involved and assist in finding the problem and the cure. Anywhere near Jasper, let me know I will help.
My feeling is that the issue is related to the powder you have. Pellets do have an inclination to "go sour" with time so if that powder is old, that could be it. Also the unknown weight of the powder is a potential cause, shooting (2) 30 grain pellets is too weak of a load. I recommend ditching the pellets and getting BH-209 powder and a simple stick type powder measure allowing you to experiment with any charge your gun does best with.
Good luck finding the fix and remember my offer to help. I have a chrono with fresh batteries, BH-209 powder, Black Powder, 50 cal bullets, sabots, a gun club 2 miles away and 50 years of experience, you decide. BOB in Jasper
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Post by MuzzleLoader on Dec 12, 2022 7:26:46 GMT -5
That load is sufficient to take down deer. If it’s 2-50 grains of pellets. Pellets old? Got wet? Where do you store pellets all year? Are they 777’s or something else?
Bullet is a shockwave made by hornady for TC.
Breech plug clean?
209 primers?
What kind of gun?
Muzzleloaders are finicky, got to clean them immediately and not let them sit after firing for days.
Any deer with both lungs takin out will be dead. Sounds like you are hitting them high with the shot dropping them. Near the spine impact will do that.
Shock to system but will get back up.
Very little blood.
Where was the buck hit?
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Post by span870 on Dec 12, 2022 7:30:18 GMT -5
Going to go on a limb knowing limited facts. Bad luck and shot placement. I'd wager first deer ended up shot a bit high in lungs, bullet wedged in off shoulder. Deer shot well but lungs didn't have enough time to fill up before deer died and blood was flowing inside before it could flow out. Probably was a bit of blood but extremely small amounts.
Shot two was way high either right above or below spine. Deer fell from shock of the shot and by the time he reloaded the shock wore off. Debate on whether deer will or will not die from shot and won't get into that one. Did it before, very limited blood and they go a long way.
Not saying the sight may or may not have been knocked off but I don't think much is wrong with your setup. Are the Barnes a better bullet. Depending. Would you have similar results with them with exact same situation? Probably. The only issue I have with the Barnes, and I used them exclusively when I used a shotgun, is if you are off just a bit and hit shoulder then you lose that shoulder. They are absolutely devastating. Still don't think you would have had a different outcome though.
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 12, 2022 7:41:38 GMT -5
Okay couple thoughts:
Don't practice with one load and hunt with another. Don't. (was mentioned previously)
Also many, raising hand, get lazy when it comes to range shooting or practicing. I used to HATE muzzleloader practice for two reasons; not a gun hunter as I prefer bow over everything AND pyrodex or Triple7 both SUCK for multiple shots with the residual they leave in the barrel. My advice is a few parts IF this ML is an inline:
One - switch to Blackhorn 209 for powder. This stuff is insanely clean. I'll shoot ten shots without even thinking about cleaning and the loads are still starting as easy as the very first. This makes practicing, actual practicing out to distances you might shoot so much more likely and enjoyable. *Now with that switch do some research or contact Blackhorn about breech plug. My CVA I needed to buy a breech designed with a slightly bigger fire channel for powder ignition than the standard one that came with it.
Two - With that practice figure out what your gun likes best. Try different bullet weights or types with same powder loads...if you have a bullet type/sabot combo you want to use mess with powder amounts to see if you can find that tack driving set up for YOUR GUN. Every single ML shoots differently I swear...the load working for someone else even with the exact same model gun may shoot differently. The best bullets often times are not the cheapest just like powder...
Three - Actually practice or don't hunt with it. This isn't just shoot at 50 yards and if on paper go. Minimum personally I want to see a two shot group (three preferred) both at likely distances (50 or so) and also then up to a shot distance or so you know you would take if given the shot. If you have a trophy buck at 150 yards and you know you're gonna shoot you better damn well have practiced out past 100 yards minimum to know how your gun and load shoots. My personal load I know is near nuts at 50, 5 inches or so high at 100 and back to nearing nuts around 160 or so. I personally won't shoot beyond that distance anyways.
Just a few thoughts for whatever they're worth.
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