|
|
Post by HighCotton on Nov 27, 2021 12:31:55 GMT -5
I've been in the process of schooling my grandson on the benefits of good shot placement on a deer this year, particularly regarding a blood trail for this subject.
Woody, I know I've read an article from John Trout on this and I can't find it so feel free to add when you can.
Between my grandson and me we have taken 3 deer so far this year. I've killed 2 does and he's taken a buck.
Both of my does were double lung shots and his buck was a heart shot.
My first doe started spilling blood from the Kimber 10mm handload within a yard of impact. The deer was less than 10 yards away.
My second doe started spraying blood from the 7mm Rem Mag at about 8 yards from the shot, best we could tell. This doe was 33 yards away.
The more interesting results we found came from his buck kill. This was with an 88 yard shot and the 6.5 Creedmoor. He ended up shooting him through the heart. The best we could tell there was little to no lung damage. The entry was about the size of a dime with a complete pass through and the exit no less than a quarter. We looked around where the buck was shot and could find no sign of blood or hair. We searched around for at least 30 yards and found nothing. Since we knew where the buck lay dead we decided to start there and back track the trail. I was mostly curious as to how the 6.5 Creedmoor performed since this was my first experience with that round. Blood was all around the buck and we readily back tracked for approximately 10 yards. From there, it seemed the blood was much less. For about 15 minutes, we continued to look for blood. At 17 yards, he found one drop about the size of a pencil eraser. This blood was on a cut corn field so the visual on husks and stalks in daylight was quite visible. We looked a long time and after another 10 minutes or so he found one more drop, about the size of the ball on a ball point pen, 19 yards from the deer. We did not find another drop. So, he shot the buck at 88 yards. It ran 43 yards before we found the first tiny drop of blood and finally fell, 19 yards later.
When we dressed his buck, I spent a good time going through the anatomy of the deer. Kind of goofy to some but it's just what I do!
We examined the entry and exit holes as I wanted him to get the full details of why I want him to wait for the best broadside shot, IF possible!
After removing the guts, we cut into the diaphragm and I was a little surprised at the pool of blood. I had him grab an old drink cup and we scooped out approximately 3-1/2, 16 oz containers the best we could tell.
We discussed how the different kills have gone this year.
Our discussions have been pretty cool, everything from how the shot affects the meat damage, to how much blood stays in the cavity at times, to how my dogs could blood trail a track back in the day, sometimes successful and sometimes not successful!
I'm not trying to make a point here, just posting my observations from a few different kills this year!
|
|
|
|
Post by duff on Nov 27, 2021 13:03:51 GMT -5
Cool observations. I am sure your grandson will remember these years for a long long time.
|
|
|
|
Post by whitetaildave24 on Nov 27, 2021 13:21:26 GMT -5
Great lesson for your grandson. I’m sure he puts those things in the ole memory bank and will remember them for the future.
|
|
|
|
Post by deadeer on Nov 27, 2021 14:06:01 GMT -5
What bullet in the CM? Different bullet construction, speed, distance, etc can make huge difference. I will sacrifice a leg, spine, or neck if you need to anchor quickly. An open field shot is different and I use the double lung at that point. Some controversy if you take out the heart. No pump left to push the blood out as compared to lung shot. Of course shoot in the head or neck for guaranteed drt everytime, although not possible in all situations or for everybody.
|
|
|
|
Post by medic22 on Nov 27, 2021 15:04:37 GMT -5
Was this a frontal shot? It's virtually impossible to hit the heart and not the lungs?
|
|
|
|
Post by esshup on Nov 27, 2021 16:09:11 GMT -5
I am lazy. I prefer not to track the deer at all if at all possible. Like Deadeer said above, head/neck (if the deer is calm, you have a solid rest and know EXACTLY where your bullet will hit at that distance, or of the deer is nervous or won't stop walking I aim for the bullet to go right under the spine behind the shoulder blade (to ruin as little of the meat as possible) and that also sends a shock wave through the CNS of the deer, dropping them on the spot. By the time the CNS recovers, they have bled out from the lungs from getting tore up.
I realize not everybody has a very steady rest, not enough time to put practicing their shooting or has enough time and reloading components to get their guns shooting as accurately as I do.
The 4 deer that I have shot this year have gone a combined 6" at the most.
For most of my hunting I use a .243 with an 85g Barnes bullet going in excess of 3200 fps MV. I just now got all the things I need to start playing with my .308, I will be getting loads for both supersonic and sub-sonic hunting situations dialed in. I have used a 115g Nosler Ballistic Tip in a .257 Weatherby, and while it DID kill the deer, I might have lost the deer if I didn't see where it dropped. No exit, no blood trail until the last 30 feet of the track and the deer ran close to 90 yds. Lung shot, clipped the top of the heart. It entered high on the left side, all the blood was still inside the deer.
|
|
|
|
Post by titanium700 on Nov 27, 2021 16:18:48 GMT -5
Here’s something fun for you to consider.
My son shoots a .243 win with the Barnes 80 grain ttsx at around 3270 fps.
My wife shoots the 6x45 (a .223 necked to 6mm) with the same exact bullet at 2800 fps.
My sons barrel has a 9 1/8” twist my wife’s a 8” twist
Hitting same locations and similar distances my wife’s rifle does way more damage to the deer than my sons.
I can’t prove it but I believe the rifling twist of a the determining factor in the damage.
|
|
|
|
Post by esshup on Nov 27, 2021 19:08:55 GMT -5
Here’s something fun for you to consider. My son shoots a .243 win with the Barnes 80 grain ttsx at around 3270 fps. My wife shoots the 6x45 (a .223 necked to 6mm) with the same exact bullet at 2800 fps. My sons barrel has a 9 1/8” twist my wife’s a 8” twist Hitting same locations and similar distances my wife’s rifle does way more damage to the deer than my sons. I can’t prove it but I believe the rifling twist of a the determining factor in the damage. I agree with you. RPM of the bullet is what's doing it. I've shot 7mm 175g Sierra Matchking bullets so fast out of my 7mm AM that they exploded in the air around 50 yds from the muzzle. |
|
|
|
Post by deadeer on Nov 27, 2021 21:57:19 GMT -5
Here’s something fun for you to consider. My son shoots a .243 win with the Barnes 80 grain ttsx at around 3270 fps. My wife shoots the 6x45 (a .223 necked to 6mm) with the same exact bullet at 2800 fps. My sons barrel has a 9 1/8” twist my wife’s a 8” twist Hitting same locations and similar distances my wife’s rifle does way more damage to the deer than my sons. I can’t prove it but I believe the rifling twist of a the determining factor in the damage. I agree. When I shot a 260rem pistol with 1-8" twist, it killed like nothing I ever seen before. It wasnt the fastest, biggest, or baddest cartridge I ever used either. JD Jones of SSK talked alot about twist, and I agree. |
|
|
|
Post by HighCotton on Nov 27, 2021 22:40:57 GMT -5
Was this a frontal shot? It's virtually impossible to hit the heart and not the lungs? Ok medic, Kudos to you and you got me on this one! I should edit and say “little damage to the lungs.” Totally agree with you. I should have made the note that it was primarily heart shot with some lung damage though the lungs were not obliterated as with a typical double lung shot! It was absolutely a broadside shot as posted in my video elsewhere in the deer hunting section. |
|
|
|
Post by medic22 on Nov 27, 2021 22:51:01 GMT -5
Was this a frontal shot? It's virtually impossible to hit the heart and not the lungs? Ok medic, Kudos to you and you got me on this one! I should edit and say “little damage to the lungs.” Totally agree with you. I should have made the note that it was primarily heart shot with some lung damage though the lungs were not obliterated as with a typical double lung shot! It was absolutely a broadside shot as posted in my video elsewhere in the deer hunting section. No worries. I was just confused on the shot angle with that description. |
|
|
|
Post by bullseye69 on Nov 27, 2021 23:49:56 GMT -5
Here’s something fun for you to consider. My son shoots a .243 win with the Barnes 80 grain ttsx at around 3270 fps. My wife shoots the 6x45 (a .223 necked to 6mm) with the same exact bullet at 2800 fps. My sons barrel has a 9 1/8” twist my wife’s a 8” twist Hitting same locations and similar distances my wife’s rifle does way more damage to the deer than my sons. I can’t prove it but I believe the rifling twist of a the determining factor in the damage. I have shot deer with my 460s&w out of my encore rifle barrel. Hornady 200gn ftx will not make it thru a deer. 3 deer, no exits even at 230 yards. The bullets just disintegrate. Found pieces of all three. Same bullet but in a 454 casull case ,shot down the same barrel ,will do a thru and thru. Never recovered any bullets. Speed killed the bullets in the 460. |
|
|
|
Post by omegahunter on Nov 28, 2021 19:54:12 GMT -5
HC,
Sounds like the exact shot placement Abbie got on her little buck with the 6.5 Grendel. I load Barnes 127 LRX for it. Shot distance couldn't have been over 30 yards. Blood started at the impact site and continued such that I could track at a fast walk, and I'm colorblind and usually have a hard time finding blood very easily. It dropped within sight going about 60 yards.
|
|
|
|
Post by esshup on Nov 29, 2021 9:25:38 GMT -5
I know they are expensive, and if you don't handload they may be impossible to find, but I really like using Barnes bullets for game whenever the impact FPS is over 2,000 fps. Great blood trails and great penetration - I can't remember when I recovered one from a critter.
|
|
|
|
Post by titanium700 on Nov 29, 2021 9:33:33 GMT -5
Same here, and if one is in a situation where you don’t want the critter to travel any distance and a CNS shot might be questionable for you shoot ‘em through the shoulders with the Barnes bullet it anchors then there every time.
|
|
|
|
Post by omegahunter on Nov 29, 2021 13:23:02 GMT -5
I know they are expensive, and if you don't handload they may be impossible to find, but I really like using Barnes bullets for game whenever the impact FPS is over 2,000 fps. Great blood trails and great penetration - I can't remember when I recovered one from a critter. I have found 2 Barnes that I have killed deer with: 1. 200 grain TTSX .358 that was buried about 10" in the ground on the exit side of a 9 pointer that was only about 25 yards away. Muzzle velocity is 2587 fps out of the .358 WSSM. 2. 130 TSX .308 that was launched at over 2900 fps into an 8 pointer that was about 40 yards away. That bullet went in near the back of the ribs, quartered up toward the off-side shoulder, but was found under the hide against THE RIBS!!!! I could just not fathom that the .308 had not exited or even broke skin on the opposite shoulder. Not even a bruise on the shoulder meat. I like the Barnes because they usually don't seem to "overly" bloodshot meat like I normally experienced with lead-core bullets. And the near 100% weight retention holds much better chances of the deer leaking from 2 holes instead of 1. A colorblind guy takes every advantage he can get!!! |
|
|
|
Post by esshup on Nov 30, 2021 2:34:55 GMT -5
I know they are expensive, and if you don't handload they may be impossible to find, but I really like using Barnes bullets for game whenever the impact FPS is over 2,000 fps. Great blood trails and great penetration - I can't remember when I recovered one from a critter. I have found 2 Barnes that I have killed deer with: 1. 200 grain TTSX .358 that was buried about 10" in the ground on the exit side of a 9 pointer that was only about 25 yards away. Muzzle velocity is 2587 fps out of the .358 WSSM. 2. 130 TSX .308 that was launched at over 2900 fps into an 8 pointer that was about 40 yards away. That bullet went in near the back of the ribs, quartered up toward the off-side shoulder, but was found under the hide against THE RIBS!!!! I could just not fathom that the .308 had not exited or even broke skin on the opposite shoulder. Not even a bruise on the shoulder meat. I like the Barnes because they usually don't seem to "overly" bloodshot meat like I normally experienced with lead-core bullets. And the near 100% weight retention holds much better chances of the deer leaking from 2 holes instead of 1. A colorblind guy takes every advantage he can get!!! I was really hoping to recover one from a deer I shot in Wi a few years back. Buck, facing me, downhill from me, at about 20 yds. It had it's head down eating leaves or something else on the ground (no mast in that area). The bullet entered the back of it's neck and was headed towards the opposite end of the deer so I hoped it would stop. When I got to the deer and started to field dress it, I noticed some blood on the dangling bits. Yep, there was an exit hole there and the inside was a complete mess. Very little meat torn up, but the inside was really a mess...... 85g 6mm TSX @ close to 3300 fps MV. |
|
|
|
Post by coyote6974 on Dec 9, 2021 20:01:39 GMT -5
Interesting OP.. I'm sure your grandson will be glad for the time you take to teach him.
I took two mature does this season. The first was shot at 25 yards standing perfectly broadside using a .44 Magnum carbine. The 240 grain Hornaday XTP bullet passed through both lungs. The doe turned 180 degrees and ran into brush along the lane she came in on. I watched as she then crossed the lane and went into the wooded edge of a creek. A second doe joined her in the brush and I could see her flicking her tail as she disapeared down the creek bank. I gave her about ten minutes before climbing down and checking for hair or blood where I shot her. I did find a tuft of white hair, but no blood. I walked to the brush along the lane she'd ran into and then found blood on the taller weeds where she'd rubbed it off. I then immediately found a good blood trail where she'd crossed the lane, and where she'd gone to the creek bank. Where she'd stopped and flicked her tail I found a large pool of blood. I walked to the creeks edge and spotted the doe laying on the oposite bank where she'd layed down. I returned to my stand and retrieved my pack giving her a few more minutes. When I crossed the creek and walked up to her she was dead. When I field dressed her I could see that both lungs had been completely obliterated. There was also some damage to the liver, and the chest cavity was full of blood. The doe had gone about 80 yards.
The second doe was shot at 33 yards with my Matthew's Z-7 compound bow. Draw weight is 55 pounds, shooting a 100 grain three bladed Muzzy broadhead. I shot this doe slightly quartering away, so shot placement was toward the rear of the rib cage. The arrow angled down through the deer and exited coming to rest in a bush. The doe ran into the brush and disappeared up hill. I walked down to where I'd shot her and found immediate blood. I returned to my stand, gathered my equipment, and walked out to my truck. I put my bow in the truck then returned to where I'd shot the doe. I was able to follow a very heavy blood trail to the downed, dead doe that had gone about 40 yards. There was an exit hole on the doe's off side lower rib cage. The doe was full of blood when I field dressed her.
I found it interesting that the doe shot with an arrow had travelled less distance that the doe shot with the .44 Magnum carbine. Both deer were of similar size, and were hit in a similar manner. Also my processor found a blazer vane that wasn't mine, inside the bow shot doe. All the vanes where on my arrow when I recovered it, so it wasn't mine.
|
|
|
|
Post by BigJLocke on Dec 16, 2021 7:59:56 GMT -5
I love this post. There are a lot of people that grab their shotgun opening day and head out to the woods without so much as a test fire to see if it still works, let alone be on target. My father was a marine and in his eyes, there was no excuse for poor marksmanship. As a kid, we learned to shoot on clay poker chips. Stick them to packing tape and a perfect shot in the middle would keep them intact, but a shot to the rim with a 22 would cause them to explode. That in mind, This year, I hunted with a rifle for the first time. I spent several years of my military career in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I went with a 308. I’m familiar with the round, and have my DOPE logs from every weapon I ever fired. I sight in the new rifle and scope, and on opening day, I was out in the woods of Morgan-Monroe state forest. About 20 minutes before the end of legal shooting time, the first mature doe I had seen all day walks up behind me. I look over my right shoulder, and she was about 30 yards away and staring right at me. I leaned to my left, raised the rifle slowly and fired a left handed shot that I later found split her heart in two. She bolted. I chambered another round, stood up and shouldered my rifle again (right hand this time). She was about 75 yards out and moving away as fast as she could move, bobbing up and down through the woods, and I put my crosshairs right on the back of her head. As soon as the smoke cleared, I see her tumbling into a ravine and I thought for sure I had just pulled off the most epic shot of all time lol. When I got to her, I found that second shot split her ear in half long ways. Confidence in your shot placement should be 100. I wasted a shot and probably caused her to run a little further, even after a perfect shot in the first place. Still not a bad shot though, all things considered haha.
|
|
|
|
Post by omegahunter on Dec 16, 2021 8:31:51 GMT -5
Isn't Morgan-Monroe considered public property?
|
|
