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Post by swetz on Jun 6, 2020 20:29:17 GMT -5
Oh I get it being owned sold and bartered has to be better. I bet you can ask anyone who has been enslaved and they would prefer to not be owned and controlled. You ever see how happy people are to retire? Nope not saying either thing---just saying there's way more to it than right or wrong. Not sure where this came from but Yes, I'm more than happy being retired, was fortunate enough to retire at 55, I'm 70 now. Steve How is there more to slavery than right and wrong?
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Post by nfalls116 on Jun 6, 2020 20:53:50 GMT -5
Oh I get it being owned sold and bartered has to be better. I bet you can ask anyone who has been enslaved and they would prefer to not be owned and controlled. You ever see how happy people are to retire? Nope not saying either thing---just saying there's way more to it than right or wrong. Steve No they were freed and people chose to continue to treat them poorly and still do...
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Post by nfalls116 on Jun 6, 2020 21:09:06 GMT -5
Oh I get it being owned sold and bartered has to be better. I bet you can ask anyone who has been enslaved and they would prefer to not be owned and controlled. You ever see how happy people are to retire? Nope not saying either thing---just saying there's way more to it than right or wrong. Not sure where this came from but Yes, I'm more than happy being retired, was fortunate enough to retire at 55, I'm 70 now. Steve So you enjoy not being controlled by another person? Interesting.
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 21:36:15 GMT -5
Nope not saying either thing---just saying there's way more to it than right or wrong. Not sure where this came from but Yes, I'm more than happy being retired, was fortunate enough to retire at 55, I'm 70 now. Steve How is there more to slavery than right and wrong? Institution of Slavery is wrong anyone knows that, myself included. Nfalls seems to want to make it a right or wrong issue( was thinking black or white but probably not the appropriate words considering what's going on right now--LOL) and asked how the slaves were the real loosers. What I was/am trying to say in answer to his question is the slaves as freed men didn't gain the same rights as the whites who fought against the north when the war was over. They couldn't vote until the 14th amendment---1868?? for example and then were intimidated with the same threats(excepting being sold or bought) Plus actual lynchings, shootings etc. Field hands were forced back to doing the same work for room and board as before with a token pay to satisfy "reconstruction". A lot of them who moved north and were subjected to abject poverty if they didn't have a skill, far worse than living as a slave with room and board and on and on and on. What I was really saying earlier when I said the slaves were the real loosers is in this context. If he or you or anyone else think the confederate white lost the civil war and the slave was the winner based on his freedom so be it. I'm not so sure Steve
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Post by esshup on Jun 6, 2020 21:41:09 GMT -5
nfalls116. If you think mistreatment is only on one side of the fence, I dare you to walk a half mile at 10 pm in late June thru late August on 55th street just West of the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago.
There is mistreatment on both sides of the fence, it's just that one side is doing all the complaining and the media is taking that side. I grew up on the South Side of Chicago, not too far from Leroy Browns area, and know all too well that if I had to go in that area to do business I'd better do it before 11 am in the daytime. A good friend was black. He said I was safer going alone than with him as company, because if anyone saw me, I would be left alone because they'd think I was absolutely crazy or a big enough bad azz that I had nothing to worry about. He was right. When I worked on the L.A. Coliseum Northridge earthquake restoration project, (I was the night shift supervisor for a sub) I was told to go to this BBQ place for the guys dinners (we took turns buying each other dinner during the week). It was like a surreal scene from TV. When I walked in the place everyone stopped talking and turned their heads, and stayed quiet until I walked back out with the orders. 4 nights out of 7 during the week we'd hear gunshots close by and we'd duck down behind the concrete walls. One morning as we were leaving there was a chalked outline of a body near the guard shack at the entrance of the parking lot. Yup, this guy was walking down the street and was gunned down right there. The guard said he hit the ground and hoped that they shot straight.
Dad was a Chicago Fireman. Who in their right mind would set fire to buildings in their neighborhood and then shoot at the firemen who came to put out the fires? When Martin Luther King was shot, that is what happened and a black fireman who was driving the back of a hook n ladder truck was shot, the bullet went in his eye and out the side of his head. He survived, but never worked again.
Show me the neighborhoods in a white community where a false alarm would be pulled, the firemen would return to the firehouse to find their TV and anything else of value to be stolen from the firehouse, even the food that they were just sitting down to eat I'm not prejudiced, I'm just telling it like it actually happened. There are people that should be called the N word of all colors, and I know blacks that call each other that same name. So why is it wrong if a white person says it?
The postmaster (postmistress?) in a town close to here is black. It's a white community. When asked why she moved here she said it was to get away from the black people that she called the N word. Now if she, a lady of color can succeed why can't others?
Why even bother bringing up the slavery issue? That was something done how many years ago? What did we do today to influence what happened back then? What do you say about blacks owning slaves? What did the Spaniards do to the Incas and other indigenous people of South America? Where are the riots and civil unrest there? I'm not saying all slaves were treated good, just like all livestock owners don't treat their animals good. But what has happened 60-100 years ago has no bearing on what is happening today unless people want it to have a bearing on it.
History that is forgotten is soon to be repeated, and bad history should be remembered just as much as good history. Remember, history is written by the winners, not the losers, so I'd bet that if the South had won the issue of slaves being mistreated would be much less.
Regarding the police and the issues that they have, I'd bet that there would be no issues if the person would listen to the police and do what they say from the get go and not be combative or dismiss them as fly specs on the wall.
I saw a training video where they took a civilian thru the training class who had said a person should have not been shot by the police for doing what they were doing. At the end of the class, that civilian shot a person that was unarmed when put thru the training exercise just like what happened in real life. But the news outlets don't show things like that..........
Take the prisoner that was seen being beaten in Elkhart/Goshen a while back. He spit in the face of an officer. Would you just sit there and let him do that, or would you do something so that he would have 2nd thoughts about doing it again? They don't show him spitting in the face of the officer on the TV news, just the reaction of the police after he did it. Careful editing can completely change the story to meet the slant that the media wants to tell..........
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Post by nfalls116 on Jun 6, 2020 21:57:26 GMT -5
How is there more to slavery than right and wrong? Institution of Slavery is wrong anyone knows that, myself included. Nfalls seems to want to make it a right or wrong issue( was thinking black or white but probably not the appropriate words considering what's going on right now--LOL) and asked how the slaves were the real loosers. What I was/am trying to say in answer to his question is the slaves as freed men didn't gain the same rights as the whites who fought against the north when the war was over. They couldn't vote until the 14th amendment---1868?? for example and then were intimidated with the same threats(excepting being sold or bought) Plus actual lynchings, shootings etc. Field hands were forced back to doing the same work for room and board as before with a token pay to satisfy "reconstruction". A lot of them who moved north and were subjected to abject poverty if they didn't have a skill, far worse than living as a slave with room and board and on and on and on. What I was really saying earlier when I said the slaves were the real loosers is in this context. If he or you or anyone else think the confederate white lost the civil war and the slave was the winner based on his freedom so be it. I'm not so sure Steve I think we are on the same side but I still disagree that the blacks were the biggest losers, I’m having a hard time getting it into my head that being owned and controlled is better than being free and poor or even subject to or fearful of possible lynchings. They spent more time being owned than they did being subject to lynch mobs. Correct?
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Post by swetz on Jun 6, 2020 21:58:39 GMT -5
How is there more to slavery than right and wrong? Institution of Slavery is wrong anyone knows that, myself included. Nfalls seems to want to make it a right or wrong issue( was thinking black or white but probably not the appropriate words considering what's going on right now--LOL) and asked how the slaves were the real loosers. What I was/am trying to say in answer to his question is the slaves as freed men didn't gain the same rights as the whites who fought against the north when the war was over. They couldn't vote until the 14th amendment---1868?? for example and then were intimidated with the same threats(excepting being sold or bought) Plus actual lynchings, shootings etc. Field hands were forced back to doing the same work for room and board as before with a token pay to satisfy "reconstruction". A lot of them who moved north and were subjected to abject poverty if they didn't have a skill, far worse than living as a slave with room and board and on and on and on. What I was really saying earlier when I said the slaves were the real loosers is in this context. If he or you or anyone else think the confederate white lost the civil war and the slave was the winner based on his freedom so be it. I'm not so sure Steve I'd rather die an impoverished free man than live as a slave. You are downplaying the reality of life as a slave. You think "room and board" is much comfort when the overseer takes your wife or daughter whenever he pleases?
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 22:32:46 GMT -5
Nope not saying either thing---just saying there's way more to it than right or wrong. Steve No they were freed and people chose to continue to treat them poorly and still do... Part in your statement up to the word poorly is mostly correct up to and including the 1960's "still do" is really getting into the Gray area(see Essups post) My experiences were similar here in Indianapolis in the 60's 70's and there's still a few neighborhoods I would prefer to stay out of after dark although probably safe as long as I didn't get out of my car and decide to "hangout". What I think is happening today is different than the narrative currently catching the headlines. racism in its purest from is not very prevalent as it was 50 years ago. Most of the black people and white people know how to get along,work and be around each other as well as give each other their space even though there are some cultural differences. At least here in Indianapolis. Now that said, there's two things at play, in my opinion, that are a problem I'm not sure we can fix without generational change meaning over a very long time. One---The activists who use "racism"(I call it the race card)and "the sins of our fathers" as an excuse to keep the pot stirred with black as well as white by putting the blame on the whites. Two---That small (emphasis on small group) of blacks (mostly young black males)who are of a criminal mindset and cause a lot of people to lump all blacks as the same(racially profile). FWIW--- I think this group is actually a subculture within the culture. I can get way deeper into a discussion but I don't want to even begin to "write a book". Steve
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 22:43:45 GMT -5
Nope not saying either thing---just saying there's way more to it than right or wrong. Not sure where this came from but Yes, I'm more than happy being retired, was fortunate enough to retire at 55, I'm 70 now. Steve So you enjoy not being controlled by another person? Interesting. Absolutely I do. freedom of choice, although not a specified inalienable right in the constitution as far as I know is one of our best God given rights and retirement gives me plenty of time to exercise it. Steve
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Post by esshup on Jun 6, 2020 22:44:51 GMT -5
Steve:
Ditto on the book.
On the South Side of Chicago last week a Walmart was looted and torched. The alderman for that area told the people of the area that they screwed up bad. They fought hard to get the Walmart in that part of town, and now Walmart said since that happened they aren't going to rebuild. So where did those people come from that did the looting and burning? Were they living in that community or were they bused in from another area? I bet I know the answer and I also bet that there will be backlash against Walmart for not wanting to rebuild. I don't blame them one bit.
Remember the Rodney King riots in LA and the small business owners standing on their roofs with AR's? THOSE stores didn't get looted.............
I;m not against protesting, but when property damage and looting is the result of the protest, it's no longer a protest and should be considered a criminal act and I believe the police have every right to use whatever force is required to stop that criminal act, if it means arresting people by the 1,000's. Slap each and every one with a hefty fine and the city can recoup some of the money lost due to extra overtime for the police, the manpower it requires to clean up all the trash that is left behind and put some into a pot for all the businesses that need help with rebuilding.
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Post by nfalls116 on Jun 6, 2020 22:47:33 GMT -5
So you enjoy not being controlled by another person? Interesting. Absolutely I do. freedom of choice, although not a specified inalienable right in the constitution as far as I know is one of our best God given rights and retirement gives me plenty of time to exercise it. Steve So what if the whole time you worked you would’ve had to stay at the same facility 24/7 365 have your family sold and or used however someone else saw fit. I’d still take my chance with the lynching and poverty
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 22:50:19 GMT -5
Institution of Slavery is wrong anyone knows that, myself included. Nfalls seems to want to make it a right or wrong issue( was thinking black or white but probably not the appropriate words considering what's going on right now--LOL) and asked how the slaves were the real loosers. What I was/am trying to say in answer to his question is the slaves as freed men didn't gain the same rights as the whites who fought against the north when the war was over. They couldn't vote until the 14th amendment---1868?? for example and then were intimidated with the same threats(excepting being sold or bought) Plus actual lynchings, shootings etc. Field hands were forced back to doing the same work for room and board as before with a token pay to satisfy "reconstruction". A lot of them who moved north and were subjected to abject poverty if they didn't have a skill, far worse than living as a slave with room and board and on and on and on. What I was really saying earlier when I said the slaves were the real loosers is in this context. If he or you or anyone else think the confederate white lost the civil war and the slave was the winner based on his freedom so be it. I'm not so sure Steve I think we are on the same side but I still disagree that the blacks were the biggest losers, I’m having a hard time getting it into my head that being owned and controlled is better than being free and poor or even subject to or fearful of possible lynchings. They spent more time being owned than they did being subject to lynch mobs. Correct? Institution of slavery lasted for centuries and still exists in some forms today. Only freed blacks became prospects for lynchings, as slaves generally became too valuable.
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 23:05:29 GMT -5
Absolutely I do. freedom of choice, although not a specified inalienable right in the constitution as far as I know is one of our best God given rights and retirement gives me plenty of time to exercise it. Steve So what if the whole time you worked you would’ve had to stay at the same facility 24/7 365 have your family sold and or used however someone else saw fit. I’d still take my chance with the lynching and poverty situation you describe is hypothetical and you assume what a slaves life was like.---Slaves for the most part got weekends off, went to visit other slave neighbors went to town etc. Never have found hard evidence as to how often or how many families were broken up. I do know it happened. Don't buy the narrative---read and learn---I can suggest some books---three come to mind written by women of the south who lived thru the war.
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Post by nfalls116 on Jun 6, 2020 23:11:36 GMT -5
So what if the whole time you worked you would’ve had to stay at the same facility 24/7 365 have your family sold and or used however someone else saw fit. I’d still take my chance with the lynching and poverty situation you describe is hypothetical and you assume what a slaves life was like.---Slaves for the most part got weekends off, went to visit other slave neighbors went to town etc. Never have found hard evidence as to how often or how many families were broken up. I do know it happened. Don't buy the narrative---read and learn---I can suggest some books---three come to mind written by women of the south who lived thru the war. Were you there? Did these books written by women of the confederacy tell you that that’s how slaves were treated? Or were these accounts documented by blacks saying how fairly field labor was treated? Sounds like you are the one who bought the narrative.
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 23:20:03 GMT -5
Steve: Ditto on the book. On the South Side of Chicago last week a Walmart was looted and torched. The alderman for that area told the people of the area that they screwed up bad. They fought hard to get the Walmart in that part of town, and now Walmart said since that happened they aren't going to rebuild. So where did those people come from that did the looting and burning? Were they living in that community or were they bused in from another area? I bet I know the answer and I also bet that there will be backlash against Walmart for not wanting to rebuild. I don't blame them one bit. Remember the Rodney King riots in LA and the small business owners standing on their roofs with AR's? THOSE stores didn't get looted............. I;m not against protesting, but when property damage and looting is the result of the protest, it's no longer a protest and should be considered a criminal act and I believe the police have every right to use whatever force is required to stop that criminal act, if it means arresting people by the 1,000's. Slap each and every one with a hefty fine and the city can recoup some of the money lost due to extra overtime for the police, the manpower it requires to clean up all the trash that is left behind and put some into a pot for all the businesses that need help with rebuilding. No doubt we're on the same page in "that book". Even the protesting part. I understand enough about protesting from the 60's being a participant that I am sure I could turn a peaceful one into a riot--no training needed. Just an angry crowd, cops showing up in riot gear and a little shouting to get it started---LOL
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Post by boman on Jun 6, 2020 23:36:08 GMT -5
situation you describe is hypothetical and you assume what a slaves life was like.---Slaves for the most part got weekends off, went to visit other slave neighbors went to town etc. Never have found hard evidence as to how often or how many families were broken up. I do know it happened. Don't buy the narrative---read and learn---I can suggest some books---three come to mind written by women of the south who lived thru the war. Were you there? Did these books written by women of the confederacy tell you that that’s how slaves were treated? Or were these accounts documented by blacks saying how fairly field labor was treated? Sounds like you are the one who bought the narrative. first question is ridiculous and I never completely buy into any narrative, I have my own based on lots of reading, watching and listening along with trying to understand what makes the human "tick". Gotta go---past my bedtime---so no more conversation thanks Steve
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Post by swetz on Jun 6, 2020 23:45:01 GMT -5
So what if the whole time you worked you would’ve had to stay at the same facility 24/7 365 have your family sold and or used however someone else saw fit. I’d still take my chance with the lynching and poverty situation you describe is hypothetical and you assume what a slaves life was like.---Slaves for the most part got weekends off, went to visit other slave neighbors went to town etc. Never have found hard evidence as to how often or how many families were broken up. I do know it happened. Don't buy the narrative---read and learn---I can suggest some books---three come to mind written by women of the south who lived thru the war. Slaves had the weekends off? I think you've stretched the limits of credulity past the breaking point.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jun 7, 2020 13:46:30 GMT -5
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Post by 36fan on Jun 8, 2020 14:59:31 GMT -5
When I saw this I thought it was old news and it happened a few years ago. At the bottom of the article: "In 2017, the Indianapolis Parks Board passed a resolution to remove the monument once funding was available."
I guess they news left out the part of "once funding was available" in 2017, and somehow funding just became available.
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Post by bill9068 on Jun 8, 2020 16:11:04 GMT -5
I know I’ll sleep better with that mean statue down.
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