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Post by jjas on Mar 15, 2020 9:56:00 GMT -5
Over the years, I've noticed that many of the concrete driveways and sidewalks in many neighborhoods are showing what I think is spalling and definite cracking.
Many of these driveways are 5 years old or so. Yet, in older neighborhoods I've seen driveways that are 30-40 years old and the concrete is in better shape than new ones.
What is causing that?
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Post by beermaker on Mar 15, 2020 10:15:13 GMT -5
Over the years, I've noticed that many of the concrete driveways and sidewalks in many neighborhoods are showing what I think is spalling and definite cracking. Many of these driveways are 5 years old or so. Yet, in older neighborhoods I've seen driveways that are 30-40 years old and the concrete is in better shape than new ones. What is causing that? Most likely too much water being added on the job site.
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Post by jjas on Mar 15, 2020 10:19:51 GMT -5
Over the years, I've noticed that many of the concrete driveways and sidewalks in many neighborhoods are showing what I think is spalling and definite cracking. Many of these driveways are 5 years old or so. Yet, in older neighborhoods I've seen driveways that are 30-40 years old and the concrete is in better shape than new ones. What is causing that? Most likely too much water being added on the job site. It's happening quite a bit around me. It kind of makes me think either people don't know what they are doing or don't care...
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Post by duff on Mar 15, 2020 10:40:27 GMT -5
Can increased salt cause that? I noticed a spot on my garage apron that I salted heavy began spalling too.
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Post by steiny on Mar 15, 2020 10:50:26 GMT -5
So long as your job is stable and no fear of layoff during this goofy "state of emergency", I'd proceed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 11:44:19 GMT -5
The quality of concrete varies a lot. I learned that a couple years ago when my son did my patio. He would only buy from one place.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 11:45:40 GMT -5
When the warmer weather starts it's all over. Just weeks away.
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Post by medic22 on Mar 15, 2020 12:39:49 GMT -5
Our finance guy has bugging us to refi. Ive been putting it off since we're doing a kitchen remodel, itll likely be enough to dump our PMI.
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Post by treetop on Mar 15, 2020 12:53:34 GMT -5
My cement guy will not use fence only rebar he tells me that even with fence your slab if it does crack can still raise up and cause a high spot were it cracked. He says with bar if it does crack the chances are it will stay level as the rebar won’t give like fence does.
I don’t know but he’s done a lot of work for me and I’m happy with his work the guys that frame for me always say he does good on being sq and true.
I do HVAC for a living and do about 75 new homes a year most of them have forced air heat in the slab you’d be surprised just how many of them are out of sq and not true makes my job and the plumbers a real sob when your trying to hit walls to run heat ducts or waste pipes for the upstairs
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Post by treetop on Mar 15, 2020 12:57:12 GMT -5
The quality of concrete varies a lot. I learned that a couple years ago when my son did my patio. He would only buy from one place. So very true a lot depends on how it’s mixed and how long it sits in the truck and as said how much water they dump in it on site
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Post by span870 on Mar 15, 2020 13:53:21 GMT -5
Water added at job is issue. Added at plant and correct mixture not. Driveways should be poured for the most part no wetter than 6" slump. 6" slump is a pain to drag so gets wetted up to 8" or 9 and self levels too. You'll know if it's too wet because you'll have standing water in it about an hour after it's poured. Again you lose psi for every slump you wet it over what we deliver. Driving on it at too low psi will cause it to flex then you get cracks. Trying to save money pouring too thin will cause issues. Wire mesh isn't bad as long as it's suspended in the concrete. Don't need chairs. Trick is to pour a line down the middle to suspend it, pour the rest and lift the wire as you go. Takes time and finishers have to stand in it which many don't like. Prevent cracking throughout you need joints. Joints will usually force the cracks on the joint. Proper bedding is needed. Ground needs to be compacted. If not concrete will still shift. Time on truck will cause issues. 90 minutes for d.o.t. work. We show up on slump. It dries by the second. Longer it takes to get off truck, drier it gets. Finishers want us to add water to keep on slump. Well we started with 9 yards. 1 gallon per yard changes slump and loses psi. Takes an hour or so to empty the truck and we are adding 5-10 gallons every time the finisher asks...well do the math. We do what we are told. We show up on slump. They want 50 gallons, they get 50 gallons. Your driveway will last about 5 years rebar, mesh, fiber or not. Look at work finisher did 5 years ago and it'll show you what you'll have. Like taxidermy. Looks good outta the shop, 5 years later the eyes are cracking. Same thing. It's a huge investment. Better safe then sorry.
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Post by esshup on Mar 15, 2020 13:59:28 GMT -5
Agreed 110% on the wire/rebar. You GOTTA support it somehow, not just pull it up when poured.
In addition, if you spec out a 4" slab, if they set the form height using a 2"x4" I'd complain. That is NOT 4".
I worked part time in Ca for a neighbor that specialized in concrete repair. We injected epoxy, jacked houses that were built on improperly compacted soils, etc. We never used wire even for a driveway, we always used #3 or #4's and never spaced them closer than 12", because he didn't want anyone stepping on the rebar and bending it or smashing the highchairs. We typically used the chairs that were 3'-4' long and had flat thin strips of steel on the bottom to prevent them from sinking in to the dirt. We always used decomposed granite (common in So. Cal.) for underlayment and we used some water and a plate compactor to get a smooth hard flat surface before setting the steel. We would spec out steel forms, even for slabs that way we knew the correct slab thickness was there and we'd double check it the day before the trucks were due to arrive so if it needed to be fixed there was time.
Mom & Dad had a guy pour their driveway that was recommended by my bro-in-law. I'd have shot the guy. No expansion joints in the concrete between the house and pole barn - a span of about 50' x 40'. The first year it moved and Dad couldn't open the service door in the pole barn. I cut expansion joints filled them with Sika Polyurethane. I found that the guy didn't pour the 5" thick slab that Dad spec'd out, he never flattened and compacted the dirt. Some areas were 4" some areas were 2" thick. Wire was laying on the ground NOT in the slab. The guy is out of business now. and the slab is cracked.
Make sure the ground under the slab is compacted properly too. If the ground doesn't support the concrete it'll crack.
Mom & Dad paid him to pour retaining walls and tie them into the poured walkout for the walkout basement. I told them that if they wanted color in the concrete (they did) to request that the concrete be colored, not a skim coat of colored concrete. (they didn't, saying that he told them that the concrete co didn't want to color it because of having to wash out the truck afterwards.) I would have told him tough, I'm paying for it and that's the way I want it or I'll find someone else. If it will cost more to wash out the truck, that's OK.
5 years later they had to have ALL that concrete ripped out, (8" thick walls, about 3' high x 50 ft. long and the floor to the walkout ripped out as well. The walls started tipping in and when it was ripped out it was found that there was no rebar higher than 6" sticking up in the walls, AND he skim coated it.
I'm pi**ed that the guy that fixed it talked them out of the colored concrete, he sprayed it like stucco and you can see where the concrete cracked (it will crack, I get it)_and the crack is white from the moisture seeping through. At least I know there is rebar tied in for structure. At least the stucco/skim coat isn't peeling and popping off like the first guy's was.
We'd spec out fiber in the concrete out West, but NEVER relied on it for structural strength, we used mesh and rebar too. The neighbor said the fiber was for minimizing surface and minor cracking, the mesh/rebar was the structural support for the concrete and stopped the major cracks from happening.
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Post by span870 on Mar 15, 2020 13:59:37 GMT -5
Most likely too much water being added on the job site. It's happening quite a bit around me. It kind of makes me think either people don't know what they are doing or don't care... It was ordered at a 5 or 6, wetted up to a 9. Poured directly on to uncompacted dirt, no rebar or mesh. Guaranteed.
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Post by span870 on Mar 15, 2020 14:09:52 GMT -5
Agreed 110% on the wire/rebar. You GOTTA support it somehow, not just pull it up when poured. In addition, if you spec out a 4" slab, if they set the form height using a 2"x4" I'd complain. That is NOT 4". I worked part time in Ca for a neighbor that specialized in concrete repair. We injected epoxy, jacked houses that were built on improperly compacted soils, etc. We never used wire even for a driveway, we always used #3 or #4's and never spaced them closer than 12", because he didn't want anyone stepping on the rebar and bending it or smashing the highchairs. We typically used the chairs that were 3'-4' long and had flat thin strips of steel on the bottom to prevent them from sinking in to the dirt. We always used decomposed granite (common in So. Cal.) for underlayment and we used some water and a plate compactor to get a smooth hard flat surface before setting the steel. We would spec out steel forms, even for slabs that way we knew the correct slab thickness was there and we'd double check it the day before the trucks were due to arrive so if it needed to be fixed there was time. Mom & Dad had a guy pour their driveway that was recommended by my bro-in-law. I'd have shot the guy. No expansion joints in the concrete between the house and pole barn - a span of about 50' x 40'. The first year it moved and Dad couldn't open the service door in the pole barn. I cut expansion joints filled them with Sika Polyurethane. I found that the guy didn't pour the 5" thick slab that Dad spec'd out, he never flattened and compacted the dirt. Some areas were 4" some areas were 2" thick. Wire was laying on the ground NOT in the slab. The guy is out of business now. and the slab is cracked. Make sure the ground under the slab is compacted properly too. If the ground doesn't support the concrete it'll crack. Mom & Dad paid him to pour retaining walls and tie them into the poured walkout for the walkout basement. I told them that if they wanted color in the concrete (they did) to request that the concrete be colored, not a skim coat of colored concrete. (they didn't, saying that he told them that the concrete co didn't want to color it because of having to wash out the truck afterwards.) I would have told him tough, I'm paying for it and that's the way I want it or I'll find someone else. If it will cost more to wash out the truck, that's OK. 5 years later they had to have ALL that concrete ripped out, (8" thick walls, about 3' high x 50 ft. long and the floor to the walkout ripped out as well. The walls started tipping in and when it was ripped out it was found that there was no rebar higher than 6" sticking up in the walls, AND he skim coated it. I'm pi**ed that the guy that fixed it talked them out of the colored concrete, he sprayed it like stucco and you can see where the concrete cracked (it will crack, I get it)_and the crack is white from the moisture seeping through. At least I know there is rebar tied in for structure. At least the stucco/skim coat isn't peeling and popping off like the first guy's was. We'd spec out fiber in the concrete out West, but NEVER relied on it for structural strength, we used mesh and rebar too. The neighbor said the fiber was for minimizing surface and minor cracking, the mesh/rebar was the structural support for the concrete and stopped the major cracks from happening. Color absolutely sucks. You order from us, you get it in the mix. Yes it takes forever to get out of the truck and we absolutely hate when it's on the ticket but you do get a quality product that is mixed throughout. Unfortunately we don't get the choice to say no. Tan colors aren't bad but I've come to hate I.U. crimson. I'll disagree on suspended the mesh though, IF DONE RIGHT. Very few actually can manually pull it up through the concrete as it's poured but there are a few. For the most part, he's right. For the most part rebar is overkill but what you are putting in the cost of doing it may be worth it. Order the concrete yourself. Call the company. We have specific mixes for specific purposes and they'll tell you exactly what you need and the exact slump you need. Many we won't even sell wetter than a certain slump because of issues.
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Post by span870 on Mar 15, 2020 14:32:54 GMT -5
Btw. There are two concrete companies in Indiana. Sagamore and I.M.I. Take your pick. Don't deal with any other. I have my preference. When you see a QC guy roll up on a little 9 yard pour because there is issues with the concrete when much of their work is 100+ yard commercial pours, that's a company that stands behind their product.
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Post by M4Madness on Mar 15, 2020 14:37:20 GMT -5
Span870, I used to work with a younger guy in Lawrence County that now drives a concrete truck. I'm not sure who he drives for. I texted him a couple of months ago to get recommendations on finishers, and he said he only trusted two in the area. One replied with a quote within the hour, the other said he'd get me a quote the next day but never did.
With DC Metals now providing the concrete work as well as the building, I have no idea what the quality of the slab will be. Hopefully it will be just fine, as they are a well-known business with decades of experience. I do wonder if they subcontract the concrete work out or if they do it themselves. I will say that I've never seen Amish concrete finishers.
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Post by esshup on Mar 15, 2020 14:39:15 GMT -5
And Mom & Dad wanted the reddish color to match the reddish lower metal on their pole barn.....
I hear you on the mesh and the color, we spent a lot of time cleaning up tools and such. Time wise it was easier for us to use rebar than mesh, to ensure that there wasn't any problems down the road. We never did new construction, we always got called in to fix a problem and he said he never wanted to get called back to fix something he did.
One job was because half the house was on virgin soil, half was on fill (topped a hill and filled a canyon to build on). The brick chimney was pulling away from the house about 3" at the top. We dug 3' dia. columns outside the house, rebar/concrete, slid I-beams under, used metal jacks with acme threads to lift the house, and poured around them. Did the same with the chimney, jacking it up and back tight to the house, pouring concrete under it and around the jacks. It wasn't an overnight fix.... We also did some colored stamp work for driveways. What a dusty, dirty, messy job that was. Most times people wanted multi colored, so we had to use the powdered dye on top of the colored concrete.
We did the epoxy injection work on the LA Coliseum after the Northridge Earthquake. That was a bear, I took a leave of absence from work - 4 month job for us, 12 hr shifts, 7 days a week. I was home 1x in that time because it was a little over 100 miles away from home. He subbed for Tutor-Saliba. I don't know what strings were pulled, but after being on the job for 3 weeks we were handed our Local 600 Union cards.......
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Post by esshup on Mar 15, 2020 14:40:54 GMT -5
span870, what about Ozinga?
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Post by span870 on Mar 15, 2020 16:41:14 GMT -5
span870, what about Ozinga? I stand by my comment.
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Post by span870 on Mar 15, 2020 16:47:53 GMT -5
Span870, I used to work with a younger guy in Lawrence County that now drives a concrete truck. I'm not sure who he drives for. I texted him a couple of months ago to get recommendations on finishers, and he said he only trusted two in the area. One replied with a quote within the hour, the other said he'd get me a quote the next day but never did. With DC Metals now providing the concrete work as well as the building, I have no idea what the quality of the slab will be. Hopefully it will be just fine, as they are a well-known business with decades of experience. I do wonder if they subcontract the concrete work out or if they do it themselves. I will say that I've never seen Amish concrete finishers. More than likely subs and use whoever is closer and cost wise. Depending on the area also. If it's Lawrence county it'll be either i.m.i or orange county. While I've never seen any "Amish" finishers, there's a whole bunch of Mennonites. One pump company we pour for is composed mostly of Amish lites. Great crew and hard workers.
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