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Post by treetop on Apr 12, 2018 11:45:20 GMT -5
My vote is no we got enough ways to kill deer I have hade enough of new regs new rules with x bows HP rifles and everything else I've had about enough just go hunt. I don't have anything against it but for years a 12 ga worked just fine and you didn't have to worry about regs With all due respect, limiting hunting equipment choices to compound bows and 12ga shotguns only isn't going to make our hunting sport too appealing to new generations. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the number of hunters are on a steep decline in this country (I don't know specifically about our state). Now I realize some people may like the prospect of less hunting participation because they think that will be good for them (ie: less competition in the woods). But the issue you are going to encounter with this will be an ever-shrinking segment of the voting population that supports our sport and heritage. I don't know about you, but I can foresee a time in the future where laws could be passed banning all hunting if the downward trend of active hunters continues. Should air guns be legalized? Yes, as long as some minimum projectile energy requirements are set by the DNR. I will even go a step further and say the DNR should consider legalizing air bows, like the Benjamin Pioneer Airbow. Yes hunting is on a decline but IMO has nothing to do with hunting weapon choices that would be at the bottom Lack of ground lack of mentors I phones TV video games sports lots of choices in-lieu of hunting. I don't see them banning hunting anytime soon way to much money gets spent for new guns bows ammo tags and the list goes on. Now go west and see what a prime unit cost to get into either through points or outfitters. Ever see what sheep tags go for on auction. How about a prime unit outfitted elk or moose hunt 15 to 20k is not out of the question. What I do see is hunting only for the well off and I don't think that is all that far away I don't mind sharing the woods with other hunters myself I could careless if you use a x bow during bow or a handgun during fire arms I wish that they would get rid of the special seasons for this and that. If your real concern is hunting will be gone than spend your time and effort and the States and DNR money and time on buying new ground improving the ground we have that will create new hunting opportunities not a another special group looking to get there special weapon legal. Just hunt and next time take a kid or someone new with ya that's best way and most cost effective way to take care of our hunting and rights Just my rant Dave
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Post by subzero350 on Apr 12, 2018 19:36:01 GMT -5
With all due respect, limiting hunting equipment choices to compound bows and 12ga shotguns only isn't going to make our hunting sport too appealing to new generations. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the number of hunters are on a steep decline in this country (I don't know specifically about our state). Now I realize some people may like the prospect of less hunting participation because they think that will be good for them (ie: less competition in the woods). But the issue you are going to encounter with this will be an ever-shrinking segment of the voting population that supports our sport and heritage. I don't know about you, but I can foresee a time in the future where laws could be passed banning all hunting if the downward trend of active hunters continues. Should air guns be legalized? Yes, as long as some minimum projectile energy requirements are set by the DNR. I will even go a step further and say the DNR should consider legalizing air bows, like the Benjamin Pioneer Airbow. Yes hunting is on a decline but IMO has nothing to do with hunting weapon choices that would be at the bottom Lack of ground lack of mentors I phones TV video games sports lots of choices in-lieu of hunting. I don't see them banning hunting anytime soon way to much money gets spent for new guns bows ammo tags and the list goes on. Now go west and see what a prime unit cost to get into either through points or outfitters. Ever see what sheep tags go for on auction. How about a prime unit outfitted elk or moose hunt 15 to 20k is not out of the question. What I do see is hunting only for the well off and I don't think that is all that far away I don't mind sharing the woods with other hunters myself I could careless if you use a x bow during bow or a handgun during fire arms I wish that they would get rid of the special seasons for this and that. If your real concern is hunting will be gone than spend your time and effort and the States and DNR money and time on buying new ground improving the ground we have that will create new hunting opportunities not a another special group looking to get there special weapon legal. Just hunt and next time take a kid or someone new with ya that's best way and most cost effective way to take care of our hunting and rights Just my rant Dave I think I understand where you are coming from, but I can't agree with everything you said. I think legalizing more weapons for deer hunting injects more excitement and interest into the sport, and perhaps also interests more people who haven't hunted before. For example, many small-framed lady hunters are probably more comfortable using a rifle than a 12ga shotgun, (or perhaps using a crossbow instead of a compound bow). I'm 6'3", so using large and heavy guns with a lot of recoil (or other large framed weapons) was never a problem for me. But I know they can be a problem for smaller-framed people. However, there are more advantages rifles have over shotguns... When the state legalized HPR's for deer hunting a few years ago, I started hunting with one as soon as I could. I still have a 12ga, but the HPR I use is much more accurate, lighter, and costs much less to feed than the 12ga I previously used. The HPR I use now cost me less than a modern comparable 12ga I would have to buy that would come close to the accuracy of my HPR. As with any skill, shooting requires practice to stay sharp. And I have to tell you that $3.00/ea 12ga sabots add up a lot faster than $0.60/ea 7.62x39 "HPR" rounds. I do agree with you though in that the available hunting land is drying up at an alarming rate. Farmers in my area are in the process of clearing even more trees to make more tillable land. It is sad to see deer cover woods being cut down, but I don't own that land so I don't have any say over what is happening to it. I did buy some land with my house purchase last year and I'm currently in the process of planting trees in an old farm field. So I'm trying to do something. I'm not sure how you propose the trim the number of deer seasons down. The way it is now is ok with me, but I would generally be opposed to shortening any of the gun seasons, or shifting them later in the year than they are now.
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Post by nfalls116 on Apr 12, 2018 20:47:04 GMT -5
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again one buck rule has saved the herd from all these extra weapons especially bow hunters getting a three month free for all.
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Post by greghopper on Apr 13, 2018 5:07:28 GMT -5
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again one buck rule has saved the herd from all these extra weapons especially bow hunters getting a three month free for all. It's Funny people don't want gun control unless it involves hunting ......then there all for it!
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Post by nfalls116 on Apr 13, 2018 6:21:55 GMT -5
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again one buck rule has saved the herd from all these extra weapons especially bow hunters getting a three month free for all. It's Funny people don't want gun control unless it involves hunting ......then there all for it! That’s for sure and Everyone is all about their constitutional right to hunt but only if it means people do it with equipment they approve of.
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Post by AcesWildAA on Apr 13, 2018 9:14:54 GMT -5
Let’s not forget younger kids can’t pull a heavy bow or handle the recoil of a shotgun. Airguns are also legal if someone has a felony charge. Now I’m not saying all felons should be able to carry a high power airgun but there are some felons who hunt with bow already. I think airguns opens the door to more hunters.
Also I’ve sent my .457 off to Doug Noble to get some valve work done and got it back. It’s now it’s close to a 44mag. The only 2 handguns I saw on a quick search with more power were the Desert eagle and the .50 smith and Wesson. I’m not a big pistol guy so there could be more out there with more power. The rifle is now shooting 350gr at 670fpe and 372gr at 730fpe.
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Post by treetop on Apr 13, 2018 11:50:49 GMT -5
As I said I don't care what you hunt with but I don't buy into kids or smaller people not using a 12 ga or HP I would say almost half the guys on here over 35 started with a 12 ga that belonged to their dad or granddad and we all made it happen, even more so today with recoil pads tripods hunting today vs even 10 years ago is so much easier on the hunter with the gear we have I did vote no on HP not because I don't want them I own some its more safety to me I live in area that's nothing but flat ground with nothing to stop a round, On any given day from my tree stand I can see 3 or 4 guys plus most homes are less than a 1/4 of a mile away not all that far for a HP rifle.
I would be in favor of a shorter season not just for gun but for everything our deer get kicked for way to long IMO its got to put a ton of stress on them. States all around us have less time and they seem to keep the deer under control. And no I don't want to give up my time in the woods either but if it helps the herd than I'm all in. I just don't see that many people with young kids having the cash to drop on a new air gun so they can make it easier for there kids when there cash all goes to food shoes and every thing else that goes with them
Just my view but if asked to vote like I said no I think the money time and effort to pass it could be used in a better way
I wish you the best of luck in quest Dave
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Post by AcesWildAA on Apr 13, 2018 11:58:14 GMT -5
I agree with you in the High power area. Another advantage to airgun also is it does not travel as far. Less recoil and you need to get closer like a bow. I don’t see your point on the money part. A good 12 gauge is in the same price range. Even a 45/70 lever action is in the same ball park price wise. I haven’t harvested a deer in 3 years. (Did not hunt during firearm this past year) Not because I haven’t had a chance. I see more does than bucks but the bucks I’ve been after have not walked by. So it’s not about the gun or means you take the deer it’s more about us as hunters managing our herds in a responsible manner. The state and INDNR are not going to lesson the quotas on bonus does so it’s up to the hunter to have restraint. I would just rather be able to do it with an airgun for the challenge. Anyone can blast a doe at 150yds with a HP rifle.
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Post by jjas on Apr 13, 2018 12:01:12 GMT -5
Let’s not forget younger kids can’t pull a heavy bow or handle the recoil of a shotgun. Airguns are also legal if someone has a felony charge. Now I’m not saying all felons should be able to carry a high power airgun but there are some felons who hunt with bow already. I think airguns opens the door to more hunters. Also I’ve sent my .457 off to Doug Noble to get some valve work done and got it back. It’s now it’s close to a 44mag. The only 2 handguns I saw on a quick search with more power were the Desert eagle and the .50 smith and Wesson. I’m not a big pistol guy so there could be more out there with more power. The rifle is now shooting 350gr at 670fpe and 372gr at 730fpe. Using your data of 372 grains @ 730 fps, that equates to 440 ft lbs of energy @ the muzzle. A .44 mag w/a 7.5" barrel (shooting Hornady ammo with a 300 grain XTP bullet) generates 881 ft lbs of energy @ the muzzle. Hornady 240 grain .44 mag shot from a 7.5" barrel generates 971 ft lbs of energy @ the muzzle. Both are substantially more than your air gun. If shot from a rifle, the 240 grain load would roughly generate 1540 ft lbs of energy @ the muzzle. That's well over three times the energy your air gun is generating @ the muzzle. So close to a .44 mag? I don't see it, but what .44 mag ammo were you comparing your air rifle load to?
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Post by AcesWildAA on Apr 13, 2018 12:02:16 GMT -5
372 gr is now in the 928fps range after sending the gun off. It is 730fpe at the muzzle. You read FPE as FPS. I said it was close to 44mag like I said I just did a quick search and I don’t know a ton about pistols and different loads. Not to mention at 50yds I don’t know many that could hit a baseball at 50yds repeatable. I will just let the states that already allow it and have researched it be my proof that they are very effective. I used this chart www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
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Post by bullseye69 on Apr 13, 2018 12:03:17 GMT -5
I agree with you in the High power area. Another advantage to airgun also is it does not travel as far. Less recoil and you need to get closer like a bow. I don’t see your point on the money part. A good 12 gauge is in the same price range. Even a 45/70 lever action is in the same ball park price wise. I haven’t harvested a deer in 3 years. (Did not hunt during firearm this past year) Not because I haven’t had a chance. I see more does than bucks but the bucks I’ve been after have not walked by. So it’s not about the gun or means you take the deer it’s more about us as hunters managing our herds in a responsible manner. The state and INDNR are not going to lesson the quotas on bonus does so it’s up to the hunter to have restraint. I would just rather be able to do it with an airgun for the challenge. Anyone can blast a doe at 150yds with a HP rifle. The last statement I wouldn't agree with. I'm sure there are people out there that can't hit the broad side of a Barn with a howitzer if it was right in front of it.
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Post by AcesWildAA on Apr 13, 2018 12:24:55 GMT -5
Yeah your probably right. Guess for me it would be a fairly easy shot with a HP rifle. Wouldn’t try it with an airgun or shotgun though. 50-75 max for me with either.
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Post by AcesWildAA on Apr 13, 2018 12:34:11 GMT -5
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Post by subzero350 on Apr 13, 2018 12:35:24 GMT -5
As I said I don't care what you hunt with but I don't buy into kids or smaller people not using a 12 ga or HP I would say almost half the guys on here over 35 started with a 12 ga that belonged to their dad or granddad and we all made it happen, even more so today with recoil pads tripods hunting today vs even 10 years ago is so much easier on the hunter with the gear we have It was a different time even only 10 years ago (and much more so 20 and 30 years ago). Today it is much harder to find places to hunt. Properties are getting bulldozed for more tillable land or housing additions. People who used to let non family members hunt their private land are dying off, and the new owners don't want anyone hunting it. And don't even get me started on the fact less of today's fathers are introducing their kids to hunting. You can't apply the same status quo that worked 10, 20, or 30 years ago to today's environment and expect it to work. Did you read the Pennsylvania Rifle Study? It concluded that your 12ga shotgun slugs can be MORE DANGEROUS on flat land than .30 cal rifle bullets. I'm not opposed to taking a look at the length of the deer seasons and possibly making some adjustments there. But if any cuts are going to be made to the length of the seasons, I have a funny feeling the firearms seasons are the ones that are going to get chopped. I don't have kids but I have family who does. Sorry, but I just don't agree that the very first gun you want to put into a young kid's hands when you introduce them to the sport should be a 12ga. And you are going to be hard pressed to find a really accurate 12ga shotgun for less than several hundred dollars - and that isn't even considering the cost of feeding the thing.
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Post by jjas on Apr 13, 2018 12:49:52 GMT -5
372 gr is now in the 928fps range after sending the gun off. It is 730fpe at the muzzle. You read FPE as FPS. I said it was close to 44mag like I said I just did a quick search and I don’t know a ton about pistols and different loads. Not to mention at 50yds I don’t know many that could hit a baseball at 50yds repeatable. I will just let the states that already allow it and have researched it be my proof that they are very effective. I used this chart www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htmThanks for the clarification. Regardless...for the cost involved versus the reward I just can't see the point, but to each their own.
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Post by subzero350 on Apr 13, 2018 13:06:47 GMT -5
I agree with you in the High power area. Another advantage to airgun also is it does not travel as far. Less recoil and you need to get closer like a bow. I don’t see your point on the money part. A good 12 gauge is in the same price range. Even a 45/70 lever action is in the same ball park price wise. I haven’t harvested a deer in 3 years. (Did not hunt during firearm this past year) Not because I haven’t had a chance. I see more does than bucks but the bucks I’ve been after have not walked by. So it’s not about the gun or means you take the deer it’s more about us as hunters managing our herds in a responsible manner. The state and INDNR are not going to lesson the quotas on bonus does so it’s up to the hunter to have restraint. I would just rather be able to do it with an airgun for the challenge. Anyone can blast a doe at 150yds with a HP rifle. Again, read the Pennsylvania Rifle Study if you haven't. The whole "rifles are dangerous on flat ground and shotguns aren't" belief is debunked in that study. I've said it before and I'll say it again: ANY weapon can be dangerous in the hands of an idiot, it doesn't matter what they are using. If you were here a few years ago when talk of legalizing HPRs for deer hunting first hit this forum, a lot of people had the belief that the sky was going to fall if they were legalized. Well after several years of HPRs being legal for deer hunting in this state, how many deer hunters using HPRs were involved in shooting accidents? I think I recall reading ONE news report about someone's barn getting hit by a .30 cal bullet - but the investigation concluded that bullet came from a gun that was being used for target shooting at the time, and not deer hunting. You mentioned the .45-70, and I'm glad you brought that up. It is a great all-around cartridge that has dropped just about everything that has walked or crawled on this continent for over a century. But guess what? It was ILLEGAL to use for deer hunting here in Indiana before HPRs were legalized. Which is really dumb when you consider the .45-70 round is comparable in performance to modern 20ga sabot ammo (the only difference being the .45-70 is more accurate and cheaper). So why wasn't the .45-70 legal for deer hunting in this state before HPRs where legalized? I have yet to find a good answer to this question. But back to your original thought - I agree with you that airguns should be legalized if they can produce enough energy to reliably dispatch a deer. But I think you are going to encounter a lot of resistance from the same people who are set in their ways and who aren't open to considering allowing new hunting equipment because of ______. It took legislative action to allow HPRs to be used for deer hunting because of some long time held beliefs and opinions - many of which were debunked by the Penn. Rifle Study.
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Post by AcesWildAA on Apr 13, 2018 15:31:53 GMT -5
Yeah I saw the study and had forgotten about it. Good point.
Back to the price argument. Let’s go back to the 45/70 . A box of 20 is close to $30-$40. I think I’ve shown this earlier. I can cast around 1200 45/70 350gr for $100 the price of 60lbs if lead. At $30 a box of 45/70 bullets it’s $1200 for the same amount of bullets. My Texan was $1000. Sure you need a pump or compressor or fill bottles but still. I’ve shot well over that number and I reclaim most of my lead in a big rubber mulch trap.
Now back to the kids hunting with a 12 or 20 gauge. I have both my son is 13 and likes to hunt squirrels with a pellet gun. He’s a little guy and he is scared to death of the shotguns. To much kick for him. He wants a crossbow for that reason. So in your opinion I should spend $500-$800 on a nice crossbow so my son can deer hunt? He would definitely go if he could use my .457 air rifle. He loves shooting it and he’s pretty good at 50yds with it off of sticks.
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Post by subzero350 on Apr 13, 2018 17:00:58 GMT -5
Yeah I saw the study and had forgotten about it. Good point. Back to the price argument. Let’s go back to the 45/70 . A box of 20 is close to $30-$40. I think I’ve shown this earlier. I can cast around 1200 45/70 350gr for $100 the price of 60lbs if lead. At $30 a box of 45/70 bullets it’s $1200 for the same amount of bullets. My Texan was $1000. Sure you need a pump or compressor or fill bottles but still. I’ve shot well over that number and I reclaim most of my lead in a big rubber mulch trap. Now back to the kids hunting with a 12 or 20 gauge. I have both my son is 13 and likes to hunt squirrels with a pellet gun. He’s a little guy and he is scared to death of the shotguns. To much kick for him. He wants a crossbow for that reason. So in your opinion I should spend $500-$800 on a nice crossbow so my son can deer hunt? He would definitely go if he could use my .457 air rifle. He loves shooting it and he’s pretty good at 50yds with it off of sticks. I have no doubt your airgun is cheaper to shoot - especially if you can cast your own projectiles. I'm not arguing this fact with you. I was just pointing out the fact that quality saboted shotgun slugs are much more expensive than so-called "HPR" ammunition, even .45-70. Which is one of the reasons why I supported the State in legalizing HPRs for deer hunting. Again, I would have zero problem if the DNR saw fit to legalize air rifles that met a minimum muzzle energy requirement suitable for hunting deer with. Concerning crossbows, I'm not suggesting you run out and buy your son a $500-$800 crossbow. But if you were logged onto this site a few months ago, you might have seen my thread on crossbows that Wal-Mart was clearancing out. You could have picked up a Wicked Ridge Warrior G3 for less than $250 and several Barnett models ranging in price from $154-$249 while they were still available. I believe several members on this forum took advantage of those clearance deals.
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Post by treetop on Apr 13, 2018 18:00:41 GMT -5
As I said I don't care what you hunt with but I don't buy into kids or smaller people not using a 12 ga or HP I would say almost half the guys on here over 35 started with a 12 ga that belonged to their dad or granddad and we all made it happen, even more so today with recoil pads tripods hunting today vs even 10 years ago is so much easier on the hunter with the gear we have It was a different time even only 10 years ago (and much more so 20 and 30 years ago). Today it is much harder to find places to hunt. Properties are getting bulldozed for more tillable land or housing additions. People who used to let non family members hunt their private land are dying off, and the new owners don't want anyone hunting it. And don't even get me started on the fact less of today's fathers are introducing their kids to hunting. You can't apply the same status quo that worked 10, 20, or 30 years ago to today's environment and expect it to work. Did you read the Pennsylvania Rifle Study? It concluded that your 12ga shotgun slugs can be MORE DANGEROUS on flat land than .30 cal rifle bullets. I'm not opposed to taking a look at the length of the deer seasons and possibly making some adjustments there. But if any cuts are going to be made to the length of the seasons, I have a funny feeling the firearms seasons are the ones that are going to get chopped. I don't have kids but I have family who does. Sorry, but I just don't agree that the very first gun you want to put into a young kid's hands when you introduce them to the sport should be a 12ga. And you are going to be hard pressed to find a really accurate 12ga shotgun for less than several hundred dollars - and that isn't even considering the cost of feeding the thing. What does lack of ground have to do with kids shooting a 20 ga 12 ga or HP rife have to do with the statement i made again most of us older guys used what dad had when we started and not all of us were bigger sized 2nd I never said hp rifles were not safe for me I don't fill they were a good fit in my area and flat ground covers a lot of our state I don't care what any study says if I'm standing on flat ground at 400 yards I'd much rather have someone with a 12 20 ga over a 270 shooting at me 3rd I'm not sure what your set up cost but either Dicks or gander had a HR 20 ga with scope for under 300 I think it was 279 plus tax I know the amao may cost more but when you look what people spend on sent control tree stands food plots and the list goes on is really that much
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Post by subzero350 on Apr 13, 2018 18:36:23 GMT -5
What does lack of ground have to do with kids shooting a 20 ga 12 ga or HP rife have to do with the statement i made again most of us older guys used what dad had when we started and not all of us were bigger sized What does lack of ground have to do with it? LESS hunting opportunities and greater difficulty in participating in the sport. You are going to have to offset the lack of places to hunt with something else to get the sport to appeal to more people in the future. Telling people they can't hunt with anything but grandpa's 12ga fudd gun during firearms season isn't going to amass more interest. Personally, I think the more young people we can get interested in the sport - the better it is going to be for our 2nd Amendment rights and hunting privileges. If a scientific study can't convince you, then that is troubling to me. In any case, I'd rather some idiot NOT be shooting at me or even in my direction with ANY weapon, even if it was a Red Ryder BB gun. If you trust people you think are dangerous with rifles but not with shotguns shooting slugs, then I don't know what to tell you. I seriously doubt that "HR 20ga with scope" sub-$300 shotgun can shoot 1" MOA like my 7.62x39 can. I would hazard to guess it probably has trouble shooting 3" MOA, as most affordable shotguns do (even with rifled barrels). I seriously doubt you are going to buy a 1" MOA capable shotgun for less than $500. And I have less than that in my 7.62x39 build. The accuracy topic aside, there is a cost of feeding the gun factor. Practice makes perfect and practicing with 7.62x39 is a heck of a lot cheaper than 20ga saboted slugs.
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