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Post by vikings on Dec 23, 2015 11:56:52 GMT -5
Thats why imo it is disease no complaint until a year or two ago. When disease hits its quick deer gone. Believe when harvest numbers are broke down you might get a better idea of areas effected.
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Post by gpd005 on Dec 23, 2015 12:00:19 GMT -5
I think this is a great post, but I think there is one factor that has been left out of this and that is social media. I know, social media technically has nothing to do with deer hunting. BUT, complainers scream the loudest and with Facebook, Forums, message boards, heck even text messaging has changed how quickly information becomes available. For the past 20 years over 100,000 deer have been killed every year in our state and not many people were complaining about not seeing anything. Heck in 1996, the first year I hunted, we were bringing home 10-15 deer a year from the farm we hunted and that happened year after year. Sure we don't see that many now, but you can still kill a deer there almost every time you hunt there if you choose and a lot has changed on that property (removing fence row, etc.) I really enjoy the forums and the facebook pages are also nice when people don't bash everyone for something but I really do think it plays a factor in all of this. Regardless it's good conversation!
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 23, 2015 12:01:25 GMT -5
Some approximation on the deer herd harvested: 1960: 1500 1970: 2500 1975: 10,000 1980: 20,000 1985: 30,000 1990: 90,000 2000: 100,000 2005: 115,000 2010: 135,000 2015: 120,000 I started deer hunting in 1981, 1st deer in 1985. We were excited, we had deer to hunt. I don't see a deer reduction issue. I never heard one compliant "Where are the deer" until the last year of two. Honestly pre-80s (in my opinion) is an entirely different animal herd wise which is why I used the data I had before me which was a table of last 28 years. Snapshots every 10 years doesn't show the truth, but it doesn't lie either all in how you present the snapshot...use other snapshots and it would look something like this: Red - Decreases from year prior Blue - Increase from year prior 1990 - 88,763 1995 - 117,7292000 - 98,7252005 - 125,526 2010 - 134,0042015 - 118k to 125k most likely.Or you could do any other snapshot as well. A full list as I had available: 1987 - 51778 1988 - 60234 1989 - 79318 1990 - 88763 1991 - 986831992 - 953141993 - 101214 1994 - 112416 1995 - 117729 1996 - 1230861997 - 104937 1998 - 100461 1999 - 99618 2000 - 987252001 - 103163 2002 - 104428 2003 - 106986 2004 - 123058 2005 - 1255262006 - 125381 2007 - 1244272008 - 129748 2009 - 132431 2010 - 1340042011 - 1290182012 - 1362482013 - 125635 2014 - 1200732015 - 110K to 125K 2016 2017 2018
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 23, 2015 12:06:19 GMT -5
Thats why imo it is disease no complaint until a year or two ago. When disease hits its quick deer gone. Believe when harvest numbers are broke down you might get a better idea of areas effected. The county by county comparisons will shed a better light no doubt, but even those don't paint a true picture of localized herds hunter by hunters see. Definitely better than the statewide figures though.
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 23, 2015 12:07:20 GMT -5
I think this is a great post, but I think there is one factor that has been left out of this and that is social media. I know, social media technically has nothing to do with deer hunting. BUT, complainers scream the loudest and with Facebook, Forums, message boards, heck even text messaging has changed how quickly information becomes available. For the past 20 years over 100,000 deer have been killed every year in our state and not many people were complaining about not seeing anything. Heck in 1996, the first year I hunted, we were bringing home 10-15 deer a year from the farm we hunted and that happened year after year. Sure we don't see that many now, but you can still kill a deer there almost every time you hunt there if you choose and a lot has changed on that property (removing fence row, etc.) I really enjoy the forums and the facebook pages are also nice when people don't bash everyone for something but I really do think it plays a factor in all of this. Regardless it's good conversation! Without a doubt and awesome point. Social media intensifies any thought or opinion sheerly by how readily it is seen, shared or discussed.
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Post by throbak on Dec 23, 2015 12:10:30 GMT -5
Every one blames coyotes I've been interested in coyotes since they came into the picture in the early 70,s One thing I have learned whether you believe it or not If the Coyotes disappear Then you had better start worrying Coyotes will NOT over populate If there is plenty of food They will have plenty of pups If they don't have sufficient food the litters ate smaller Killing coyotes where there is plenty of food just causes them to have larger litters to make up for the loss Coyotes mate for life You kill one or the other it will be replaced If coyotes disappear somethings wrong the prefers food is Rodents Manage good Habitate for those And you have good Habitate for fawns to hide in I have lots of deer and coyotes I also have good Habitate I loose more deer to early hay mowing and Road kills in my neighbor hood than anything Two yrs ago 6 fawns mown over and 7 to Autos Within 2miles the fawns were from my close neighbors
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2015 12:14:37 GMT -5
Some approximation on the deer herd harvested: 1960: 1500 1970: 2500 1975: 10,000 1980: 20,000 1985: 30,000 1990: 90,000 2000: 100,000 2005: 115,000 2010: 135,000 2015: 120,000 I started deer hunting in 1981, 1st deer in 1985. We were excited, we had deer to hunt. I don't see a deer reduction issue. I never heard one compliant "Where are the deer" until the last year of two. Honestly pre-80s (in my opinion) is an entirely different animal herd wise which is why I used the data I had before me which was a table of last 28 years. Snapshots every 10 years doesn't show the truth, but it doesn't lie either all in how you present the snapshot...use other snapshots and it would look something like this: Red - Decreases from year prior Blue - Increase from year prior 1990 - 88,763 1995 - 117,7292000 - 98,7252005 - 125,526 2010 - 134,0042015 - 118k to 125k most likely.Or you could do any other snapshot as well. A full list as I had available: 1987 - 51778 1988 - 60234 1989 - 79318 1990 - 88763 1991 - 986831992 - 953141993 - 101214 1994 - 112416 1995 - 117729 1996 - 1230861997 - 104937 1998 - 100461 1999 - 99618 2000 - 987252001 - 103163 2002 - 104428 2003 - 106986 2004 - 123058 2005 - 1255262006 - 125381 2007 - 1244272008 - 129748 2009 - 132431 2010 - 1340042011 - 1290182012 - 1362482013 - 125635 2014 - 1200732015 - 110K to 125K 2016 2017 2018 Thank you for the actual numbers. I was trying to show a point more than actual numbers. We should appreciate and be thankful that we have deer to hunt.
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 23, 2015 12:19:53 GMT -5
Every one blames coyotes I've been interested in coyotes since they came into the picture in the early 70,s One thing I have learned whether you believe it or not If the Coyotes disappear Then you had better start worrying Coyotes will NOT over populate If there is plenty of food They will have plenty of pups If they don't have sufficient food the litters ate smaller Killing coyotes where there is plenty of food just causes them to have larger litters to make up for the loss Coyotes mate for life You kill one or the other it will be replaced If coyotes disappear somethings wrong the prefers food is Rodents Manage good Habitate for those And you have good Habitate for fawns to hide in I have lots of deer and coyotes I also have good Habitate I loose more deer to early hay mowing and Road kills in my neighbor hood than anything Two yrs ago 6 fawns mown over and 7 to Autos Within 2miles the fawns were from my close neighbors throbak I have heard that no doubt about how they are one of the few animals that breed to the need or have litter sizes dictated by need. I would never want to exterminate them entirely...however I do feel the perfect time to take some out is spring, just before the fawning starts. This keeps their numbers more friendly to the fawns that year and yet allowing the coyotes to co-exist as well, as you stated they will replace what is taken. To me it is all about timing more than just slaughtering them...perhaps I should have stated that more clear...but I'd already gotten wordy.
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Post by chriskline on Dec 23, 2015 12:50:44 GMT -5
And how many hunters are NOT seeing deer because they are ON social media complaining about not seeing deer while IN the woods?! LOL
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Dec 23, 2015 13:01:21 GMT -5
I'm going to shoot me some coyotes.
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Post by swilk on Dec 23, 2015 19:09:06 GMT -5
I'm going to shoot me some coyotes. Sounds easy doesn't it.....I've found its easier said than done. I'm going to recruit the help of a trapper who knows how its done.
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Post by drs on Dec 24, 2015 5:22:49 GMT -5
Developing lands that once held Deer, which had all the requirements of necessary habitat, poses the GREATEST detriment to the Deer herd in Indiana. Every time an area, be it a Farm or re-claimed coal mine even a wooded area, is developed for Housing Subdivision or other "Urban Sprawl" developments, ends or reduces the Deer herd in that area. How much habitat will be developed along the I-69 HWY??
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Post by bowhunterjohn on Dec 24, 2015 7:29:54 GMT -5
I have been wondering this year if the fawn crop the last few years has been down . At our lake in lower MIchgan our largemouth bass population has been down the last few years. One thing I noticed the last 3 years is the lack of largemouth on beds in the spring.
I attribute out drop to that, fewer bass spawning. I just wonder if that could be the case here, fewer doe having fawns , not that there aren't mature does, that they are just not having offspring ?
Just an angle
I have seen about the same populations at the 5 different farms I have hunted now for years, the only one that I have seen a drastic decline is the last year is the Miami county farm.
I think that there is no real answer except for the fact that populations rise and fall. if you could take a chart of deer population year to year I am sure you would see a rise and fall over 3-5 years in any direction. Meaning one or two years the population would be higher, then level off, then a fall, then a rise.. like the stock market.
We could just be on a declining phase. The worry should begin if we see this trend over 5-8 years
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Post by tynimiller on Dec 24, 2015 16:51:35 GMT -5
I have been wondering this year if the fawn crop the last few years has been down . At our lake in lower MIchgan our largemouth bass population has been down the last few years. One thing I noticed the last 3 years is the lack of largemouth on beds in the spring. I attribute out drop to that, fewer bass spawning. I just wonder if that could be the case here, fewer doe having fawns , not that there aren't mature does, that they are just not having offspring ? Just an angle I have seen about the same populations at the 5 different farms I have hunted now for years, the only one that I have seen a drastic decline is the last year is the Miami county farm. I think that there is no real answer except for the fact that populations rise and fall. if you could take a chart of deer population year to year I am sure you would see a rise and fall over 3-5 years in any direction. Meaning one or two years the population would be higher, then level off, then a fall, then a rise.. like the stock market. We could just be on a declining phase. The worry should begin if we see this trend over 5-8 years Fawn birth rate and survival rate is a huge piece of the puzzle which is tough if not impossible to measure for sure...but awesome point! Coyote killings of fawns in the Spring are not the only thing keeping fawns from living. We've had a couple really harsh and bitter cold winters.....this extremely soft winter so far should go a long way towards healthy momma does heading into their birthing days ahead of them.
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Post by firstwd on Dec 24, 2015 17:39:40 GMT -5
I have been wondering this year if the fawn crop the last few years has been down . At our lake in lower MIchgan our largemouth bass population has been down the last few years. One thing I noticed the last 3 years is the lack of largemouth on beds in the spring. I attribute out drop to that, fewer bass spawning. I just wonder if that could be the case here, fewer doe having fawns , not that there aren't mature does, that they are just not having offspring ? Just an angle I have seen about the same populations at the 5 different farms I have hunted now for years, the only one that I have seen a drastic decline is the last year is the Miami county farm. I think that there is no real answer except for the fact that populations rise and fall. if you could take a chart of deer population year to year I am sure you would see a rise and fall over 3-5 years in any direction. Meaning one or two years the population would be higher, then level off, then a fall, then a rise.. like the stock market. We could just be on a declining phase. The worry should begin if we see this trend over 5-8 years Fawn birth rate and survival rate is a huge piece of the puzzle which is tough if not impossible to measure for sure...but awesome point! Coyote killings of fawns in the Spring are not the only thing keeping fawns from living. We've had a couple really harsh and bitter cold winters.....this extremely soft winter so far should go a long way towards healthy momma does heading into their birthing days ahead of them. There is a lot of winter left and I have this old man type of feeling that we are going to pay for this current mild spell big time.
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Post by M4Madness on Dec 24, 2015 17:47:44 GMT -5
I personally consider lack of fawn recruitment to be a greater cause of a dwindling herd than bonus antlerless licenses. But it's easier for people to believe that other hunters are to blame. I only got perhaps two fawns on camera this past summer. My neighbors have visually witnessed multiple coyote attacks on deer where the deer were killed.
My community is the epicenter of the Indiana bobcat population. Heck, over a decade ago, the DNR was catching many right here where I am and fitting them with radio collars. Obviously I cannot with 100% certainty say that bobcats are contributing to fawn mortality, but it is plausible.
The DNR has confirmed a mountain lion less than 20 miles from me, and there was a second, poilce officer confirmed sighting of one feeding on a road-killed deer less than 5 miles from my home. More have been reported just down the highway from me on the Crane base.
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Post by boonechaser on Dec 24, 2015 18:25:36 GMT -5
I saw more fawns this past spring than I can ever remember. Suspect wet spring delayed hay cutting by a month or more providing additional cover to hide from preadators. This winter has been very mild and just looked at 30 day forecast which is calling for above average temps. Pulled camera cards today and have good numbers coming into feeders and mineral licks.
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Post by throbak on Dec 24, 2015 20:58:04 GMT -5
I think your right on with the delayed hay cutting.. I never lost any to the mowing machine this year usually several between me and the neighbor are lost . The deer really use the WSG for the fawns That helps with fawn survival also
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Post by nfalls116 on Dec 25, 2015 0:52:14 GMT -5
I think in my area there is probably decreased predation by canines because we don't have big mixed breed feral dog packs running around here anymore thanks to coyotes a few 40# coyotes aren't going to take down nearly as many fawns and adult deer as a pack of 70#+ labsheppittweilerdoodles will. Have no research to substantiate my claims but if you have ever dealt with a true pack of feral dogs you would understand why being in the woods with a weary creature such as a coyote is more comforting than being run up a tree by big unfriendly feral dogs.
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Post by drs on Dec 25, 2015 5:31:18 GMT -5
I have been wondering this year if the fawn crop the last few years has been down . Fewer doe having fawns , not that there aren't mature does, that they are just not having offspring ? Just an angle I have seen about the same populations at the 5 different farms I have hunted now for years, the only one that I have seen a drastic decline is the last year is the Miami county farm. We could just be on a declining phase. The worry should begin if we see this trend over 5-8 years Concerning the drop in birth of fawns, in recent years. I have a pet theory that G.M.O. crops [MIGHT] be affecting the birth rate of Deer as well as other wildlife species that consume G.M.O or "Round-up Ready" crops. I am concerned that future generations of Deer offspring will be more & more affected. Bucks & Doe could become infertile, just after a few generations. Also, how are these affecting the "Human" population & general health?
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