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Post by steve46511 on Sept 8, 2013 8:02:50 GMT -5
As the old saying goes "This is a TEST.......It is only a test!" At this point in time I am not recommending this or any other head for anyone. In fact I would only EVER do so showing what results I've gotten and let people judge on their own. Opinions and viewpoints will always differ. This is what makes us who we are. "Bashing" posts are totally pointless for this reason. I'll admit, when I first saw this head, I snickered a little. (See above on opinions, lol) It is so RADICALLY different from anything else on the market, it gave me pause.....to say the least but also it was SO different I continued on to do what research I could and find out all I could on previous uses and also swapped email with the creator of such. This is the "TOXIC" broadhead by Flying Arrow Archery. This is so different and research showed me things that I scoffed at EVEN AFTER SEEING so since physical "issues" have caused me to switch back to a compound from my beloved recurves and longbows I thought I would add this to the season's equipment list and to literally "see for myself". I would appreciate it if readers/followers would give input if they so desire but......repeat BUT, would GREATLY appreciate it if posts like "that wont work" "that wont penetrate" etc, etc (without any personal use) would be withheld. Do I think I am doing something ethically "wrong"? Nope. There isn't a head on the market that wont kill deer, placed correctly, therefore this head WILL work.......I'm going to find out how well AND report both good and bad results (even if it's MY fault.......arghhh!) Again, this is not an advertisement for this head. This is the test I will be taking and if I cross my fingers, hold my tongue right and God allows, I will take a few deer with it to review the results. While used in test hunts previously, this hit the market in Jan 2013, if my info is correct. Antelope, bear, deer, elk, moose have all been taken with this head with "reports" of the animals going about 30 yards after the shot.....or less and of course "sick" wound channels. (not my word but theirs). Yes, it is legal. JUST 7/8 inch wide when shot and that doesn't change "much". The inside of the blades are what is sharpened and results seen on the web showing the blades do "open" just a tad but not dramatically. What it DOES do (reportedly at this point) is create a wound channel that for the lack of a better word is "a hole". Several old heads were made with the intent to do just that, yet all failed in most people's opinion due to the "reduced penetration" The claims made, as well as youtube shots through steel drums, seasoned hardwood and reports (even one local bow shop) shooting through OSB and/or plywood with the arrow continuing on another 20 yards.......shot by a lady with a 47lb bow and 26.5 inch draw. So........I intend to find out how this performs FOR ME in the only tests I have much faith in. That of on wild game. While different from the "normally" advertised "TWO INCH WIDE CUT!!!!" I see so often, the wound channel advertised DOES have my intrigue going at full throttle. A LOT of us, (me included for decades) say we will stick with "what has worked. It ain't broke.....etc etc" and this is GREAT. SHOOT WHAT YOU HAVE FAITH IN. I have said it before and will again. "CONFIDENCE KILLS". In a nutshell, this is going to be my thread, on my results and it will be slow moving. I'm NOT going to shoot this into various material. IMHO, that doesn't tell me squat. ACCURACY will be tested as well as how the construction appears upon arrival but it will be results only on, live game taken, blood trails, approx. time they stayed on their feet, the wound channel, what organs/bones were hit and how the head held up. A true live game only test.. Sharing because I appreciate such that I see others post and for no other reason. God Bless Steve (none of these photos are MINE but are ones snitched from the web. My own will be labeled so later). Side view  Top view  On arrows  Results of a shot in a 3D deer target.  If wished, Flying Arrow Archery has a webpage with videos as does youtube. Again.....they are being shot at objects for testing other than living beasts but there are accuracy vids as well. |
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 8, 2013 12:18:54 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see an unbiased analysis of this head. Yes it does resemble the old Browning Serpentine that could core an apple but was less than spectacular on critters.
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 8, 2013 12:48:36 GMT -5
BTW .. First thing I thought of when I looked at the deer target hole outline was "Mickey Mouse"..
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Post by trapperdave on Sept 8, 2013 14:30:51 GMT -5
i predict very poor penetration. anyone have a dead cow we can test on?  (private joke for fellow leatherwallers) |
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 8, 2013 14:56:58 GMT -5
i predict very poor penetration. anyone have a dead cow we can test on? (private joke for fellow leatherwallers) You think it could kill a dead cow?  |
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 8, 2013 16:22:24 GMT -5
i predict very poor penetration. anyone have a dead cow we can test on? (private joke for fellow leatherwallers) You think it could kill a dead cow? LOL!!! I'm sorry......dang, that was funny. Agreed, Trapper, that was my exact same thought AT FIRST GLANCE and is also the first thought of a lot. Again, I feel this is the only way for me to find out. I may not be unbiased, if anything though I lean towards it NOT working as advertised but there is just too much info (so far) from users saying otherwise (on game that is). The shot THROUGH the 16 gal steel drum on "the tube" was "impressive" but......it was also shot with an 80lb bow even if with 420 grain arrow...and 10 yards. (Youtube search for "Toxic Broadhead Test: Steel Barrel" will find it, I've never spent enough tine there to even look at how to share a link other than share the address. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLs26m_73MNever the less with THIS ONE SHOT, at that distance, at that drum, with that set up.......it sure made a hole and SURVIVED as the second video shows. BUT AGAIN, what it did on that shot ON STEEL doesn't give me what I WANT TO KNOW but does show that AT LEAST THAT ONCE, the head took the abuse. What I DON'T know is if that was the only time he did something so crazy......(sorry, Not me. IM POOR!) Second video showing the head (at least it's indicated it is the same head that was used.) www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_vILTTTZwYI REALLY WOULD like this to be as Unbiased as possible. I strongly dislike sticking my name to anything where something or other "seems off" or is not as I intend so here is where YOU ALL come in, if you would do so. In an attempt to make these hunting tests "as average as possible" I have altered my set up a bit different from what I would "normally" using a compound. Normally I would shoot 70lbs and 500 grain arrows (or more). Yeah, yeah......"I'm weird". Sue me :-) PLANNED right now is the below set up. For my own reasons I wanted this to be as "average" of a set up as I can muster...within my means and this is what I came up with ONLY going by the few locals I know that I am privileged to have such info. Bow is an older Mathews Z-Max.
Weight 65lbs Draw 29 inches
Arrows Easton Carbon 400s. finished weight is 420 grains.
SO FAR.........this is my opinion of some kind of normal set up if such a beast exists. LOL! Input? God Bless |
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Post by dbd870 on Sept 9, 2013 4:35:48 GMT -5
My thought as well.
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Post by parson on Sept 9, 2013 6:04:04 GMT -5
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 9, 2013 7:21:44 GMT -5
While this post will be ongoing awhile, and will be slow since only my provided info, a quick search in google, then click "search options" then "last 24 hours" you will find (if interested) more and more reports and reviews being posted pretty regularly.
One of the guys is another old timer shooting a crossbow and while I didn't watch it yet, appeared to be an accuracy test since starts in his yard. If memory serves Woody, it was about a 15 minute video.
Another guy shot a 9" thick ham, covered with tanned leather, two shots (pretty close ones) showing "pass through" shots with arrow stopping in the target a couple feet or so behind. WHY he didn't show the ham itself after shot I have no clue but seemed more interest in the entrance and exit holes (not saying that isn't of interest, but I would have liked to see the ham.)
On the Flying Arrow Archery facebook page more and more successful hunters are posting hero photos and I expect this will continue as more and more seasons open, some posting wound channels, entrance holes etc. One is of a nice bull Elk with a young lady (23 yards, 44lb bow.....no other info provided). Not offered as anything other than what I have seen online to date.
There ARE going to be bad reviews mixed with the good, and this is why I check for them. I cannot have too much info while running this season's review on them. Anything mentioned as "a problem" I want to watch for and/or test myself.
One such reported "issue" came to me yesterday in the form of an email. The gentleman said he could not "get them to fly" with helical fletching. Seems a bit odd to me but that has been added in my own testing. I will be comparing slight helical and straight fletched arrows with the head.
Again, what info I provide will be results mostly on actual kills (God willing) but if I run into any kind of issues shooting them (hard for me to expect any kind of problem there with today's heads) I will post them.
First things first, I still have a little to change in the bow set up since newly at my disposal and final tuning and practicing before I switch gears after the heads arrive.
Yes...I know a lot spend the summer shooting. Obviously I could not do so this summer but I am attempting to put first things first here before I tackle the review while hunting. It could easily be mid Oct before I get too serious. Patience please.
Hopefully I won't get "skunked" lol...then all this will be quite moot! :-)
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Post by hoosiernavy29 on Sept 9, 2013 11:11:46 GMT -5
Steve, check out on Archerytalk, several deer have been taken in the last several days, Penetration has been great, but both stated the holes and blood trail weren't that great, not what they expected. As others stated above, a lot of people thought the penetration would be the main concern. Also one guy stated that the head was loud.
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 9, 2013 17:46:20 GMT -5
I had seen that, thank you. Yes, the one did state it was whistling and as stated there will be some with negative comments which I will investigate here on my own. I fully expect that.
I've emailed and PMd over a dozen guys for opinions, zero agreed with the whistling sound saying it flat didn't so....not sure what is up there but definitely on the list to check out which it would be anyway. I AM a little lost though that he state he noticed the whistling SHOOTING A DEER...(successfully)......and not before? No offense to that author but that was the first thing jumped into my mind. He HAD NOT shot the head previously? Or it just didn't whistle then? I don't know.
"Not what they expected" on blood trails, is also something I have read but most are saying the blood trail is easily followed. Not knowing what they expected??? that is a little vague information wise especially I've yet to see where anyone said "such and such" head left a heavier one........but I KNOW that WILL happen, sooner or later.
One shot doesn't make a review IMHO. Even my season long review, even if I shoot a half dozen deer it will still be a very small cross section of results but add what I find (if anyone wishes) to other reviews for a larger picture and as time goes by a good number of experiences will point towards what one can expect "on average".
The reason I stated that there WILL BE negative comments is simply because EVERY head on the market has negative comments made about them somewhere online. A good example of this is the RAGE. People hate it to pieces or swear by it.
My entire reason for my own testing is because that is the ONLY way I can REALLY see what it does....FOR ME. I may hate it!! I may not. I may find it so-so but I am starting (as much as I can) without expectations of ANY kind. No bucket of blood trails or pass throughs, nothing. I am just going to see how it performs and test it hunting as much as I can.
There are a TON of good heads on the market. Almost all want to claim "king of the hill" status yet again, every single one has someone that wouldn't shoot it if they were paid.
This will be another in that same group. I only hope I have information to offer using it that is of interest to the gang here. It very well could be that my efforts will mean nothing to others but since doing it for my own information, I thought I would share.
In reference to Archery Talk, there are SEVERAL websites with members posting results and opinions. Moose, Elk, deer, antelope, turkey....and just today I saw a Greater Kudu kill posted. LOTS and LOTS of information is hitting the web and I expect this will continue before and after I finish my own. Take a look around if you wish. The number of posts climbs daily.
God Bless and thank you for sharing the info.
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 17, 2013 17:26:32 GMT -5
Just a little info today. Bow is new to me, and just set it up the way I will shoot it. I've spent the last week just getting used to SHOOTING again, I was unable to bowhunt last year due to health problems and only gun hunted a few days so I didn't shoot 100 arrows all year. Probably closer to about half that. OUT OF SHAPE..........wow! I am still not shooting "lots". About 50 arrows a day and probably should quit at about 35. About then my groups suffer and bad habits from being tired rear up and bite me. I have not used a sight of any kind since 1996 but with the time to practice getting short, I put a single pin sight on this Mathews Z-max, just today. I was shooting "ok" without but the total package gave me too many shots that I just didn't know why that one went where it did so I put the sight on and set it about 3 hours prior to shooting the Toxic head. I thought about waiting a few more days and get more confident in my shooting but a few comments online concerning shooting the Toxic head with "too much helical" (whatever that means) appeared to not work too well for them was bothering me. This was a concern to ME simply because helical fletching has been my preference for some 45 years and I preferr to not change that. I had shot about 40-50 arrows while setting up the sight and then took a break. I thought I was done for the day but yet another post of problems shooting the Toxic with helical fletching was found.......and I had to know if this was going to be a concern. TIME is running out for any more changes AND shooting. I was concerned about stopping arrows with this head AND being able to get them OUT of whatever they ended up in. My thoughts were to slow it down BEFORE it hits my deadstop target because getting one out of it would be major surgery! With this in mind I took a box and stuffed it FULL of old cheap pillows, piled "rag rugs" behind that and put my Dead Stop behind the whole shebang. Worked good enough. The head would punch through the pillow box, slow even more so through the rag rugs and ended just "broadhead deep" in the Dead Stop. I shot the same arrow, same head, same blades all six shots. I should have stopped at arrow number 3! :-) The first three zinged pretty much in one bigger hole and for what it is worth, I feel those off, left and right were "me". This is normal for my groups when I tire and as said, I was pretty much already tired. What this tells ME however is that on MY set up, my style, my arrow weight and speeds, helical fletching looks like it will be more than adequate for hunting. I do not recall the last broadhead that I shot 3 consecutive shots any better. As I am sure most noticed, yes, I shoot feathers most times but I will test the Toxic on a vane fletched arrow before season. I commonly have such in my quiver in case of an unexpected bout with rain while hunting. I am not intending for fletching preferences to be any type of concern or factor to banter about. I am simply stating my own preferences and what was used......and the results of such for me, so far. IGNORE shot 6! DANG....I flinched BAD. A "double clutch" shot for those familiar! Shots four and five I was just having difficulty holding STILL. I noticed NO error in arrow flight out to 20 yards which is within about 85 percent of my hunting shots. Further distances may be shot but I don't expect any difference in results. There was, of course, no damage of any kind to the head or blades. God Bless   For me.......they fly!! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 14:01:59 GMT -5
I predict that who ever owns the 3-D target is one P-Od fellow.
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 19, 2013 16:36:33 GMT -5
I know I would be! There are a few photos around like that.
Makes me flinch and I don't even have one.
FWIW......that is a little bit of a "down side" to these heads for those who prefer to shoot broadheads much pre-season.
Guess we'd need a "Toxic Target" too? LOL!
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 25, 2013 12:57:44 GMT -5
A little "perspective" for those who have not yet seen these in person. Left to right. Bear Razorhead Toxic Snuffer SS 100 grain Snuffer 140 grain  God Bless! |
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Post by dbd870 on Sept 25, 2013 16:59:45 GMT -5
I used to have some of those Bear heads. That's been a while!
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 25, 2013 17:09:43 GMT -5
I used to have some of those Bear heads. That's been a while! "Been awhile" is an understatement.. I used them when I first started bowhunting back in 1968 BC (Before Compounds) . After a few years I switched to Zwickeys Eskimos. Then I went replaceable blades with Savora Super S. I tried the old Wasp replaceable blades but that thing shucked the blades just hitting rib bones .. Broadheads have come a long way but you know what - Bear Razorheads and Zwickey Eskimos will still kill deer.. |
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Post by dbd870 on Sept 25, 2013 17:29:36 GMT -5
Killed a groundhog with one of those heads, was really proud of that shot. Probably circa 74 or 75. Had a 40# Ben Pearson. I remember drooling over the Bear compounds in the mid to late 70's catalogs, they really seem like relics today don't they!
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 25, 2013 22:04:40 GMT -5
[/quote]"Been awhile" is an understatement.. I used them when I first started bowhunting back in 1968 BC (Before Compounds) . After a few years I switched to Zwickeys Eskimos.
Then I went replaceable blades with Savora Super S. I tried the old Wasp replaceable blades but that thing shucked the blades just hitting rib bones ..
Broadheads have come a long way but you know what - Bear Razorheads and Zwickey Eskimos will still kill deer..
[/quote]
I'm "behind" a little, lol.
Can't recall the number of deer I've taken with Eskimo heads, and a buddy is still slinging the Bears.
I do recall the 2 deer I shot in one day, late 90's, I was (still) using them, compound and all. Both just over 30 yards and neither went more than 50 yards but over the years an Eskimo killed deer probably averaged around 75 yards, for me.
The Eskimo is one tough head that I can SHARPEN very well. Push come to shove and I had to pick ONE head to use for survival.......it would be top on the list, probably tied with a Snuffer. Indeed, they do work and work efficiently. It's the head I've put through scapulas and a few spines too. "Broadhead failure" is not ever a concern.
So much out there I'd love to try out. For me, it is not about "finding a better one" it's more of a curiosity / fun thing.
I picked up the (dinky to me, lol) 100 grain SS Snuffer hoping to get a chance to compare them to the Toxic. Two entirely different technologies, close to the same size, and both will work. Curious if I can tell a difference, mainly on blood trails, even knowing my few tests are just a drop in the bucket to what it would take to say one is "better" than the other.
BIG Snuffers were on my "rain arrows" for decades. Deer I shot with 140-160 grain Snuffers went down FAST, never ever out of sight on the ones I shot. I used them exclusively in rainy weather fearing a lost deer if one went far but then too I only took closer shots than now so weight preferences were high anyway.
The 100 grain SS versions are MUCH smaller but the design is still sound, easy to sharpen and fly well for me, so hoping for some results to compare there.
God Bless
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 30, 2013 14:20:29 GMT -5
Last "flight testing" day before season, as well as re-confirming where my two sight settings (single pin) shoot at various distances. Arrows settled on are 404 grains with tips/heads With lighted nocks, 10 grains heavier but still 10 percent FOC, even with vanes. Blazer offset vanes. This single Toxic head has been shot over a dozen times without changing blades. The photo, if compared to the one above of what they look like new and unshot, shows how the blades have opened up being repeatedly shot into the cheap target (wadded up plastic etc inside)yet still flying right with the field tipped arrows. Shooting into this target is not a "penetration test" of worth but I cannot tell any difference between the toxic and 100 grain Snuffers with any consistency but the same applies to field tips. One goes through and next time it wont depending on inconsistencies in the target's contents. Center arrow is the Toxic tipped arrow with an "After Burn" lighted nock (Nocturnal replica). If you look, the right arrow has an appendage missing. Right before shooting I was thinking to myself that THIS TIME I didn't shoot the broadhead FIRST like I had been.....oops. 30 yards using the 38 yard sight setting. For perspective, the top and middle center dots are 6.5 inches Center to Center and the middle dot is 2" wide. Again, as always, the left arrow is "me" and results of a less-than-smooth trigger pull on my fletchunter release. FWIW, they fly as good as any head I've ever shot and have had NO problems with erratic flight regardless of fletching combination used without a drop away rest. What they do in action on live game is, of course, the kicker and what I want to see the most. A few disappointed hunters in posts online, but the majority are posting awesome and short blood trails, however the same can be said for any head out there. Good or bad, I am hoping to see for myself here soon. God Bless    |
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