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Post by huntingman on Sept 30, 2012 13:14:54 GMT -5
For the Encore, do the Pistol barrels fit the rifle stock? So it'd be like a carbine?
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Post by jjas on Sept 30, 2012 13:27:33 GMT -5
For the Encore, do the Pistol barrels fit the rifle stock? So it'd be like a carbine? If I'm not mistaken, I do believe what you are proposing to do is illegal. You are creating what is known as a short barreled rifle. A rifle can't have a barrel shorter than 16 inches and the overall length can't be less than 26 inches, UNLESS......you get approval from BATF and pay the $200 tax stamp before you purchase or create such a firearm. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2012 17:27:50 GMT -5
The barrels will enterchange with the frame, but the forearms are different. It is not legal to use the pistol barrel on a frame bought as a rifle.
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Post by danf on Sept 30, 2012 22:00:05 GMT -5
The barrels will enterchange with the frame, but the forearms are different. It is not legal to use the pistol barrel on a frame bought as a rifle. Point of clarification- it depends on how the frame left the factory, not necessarily how you bought it if you buy it used. If the factory designated the frame as a rifle frame then no, you can't put a pistol barrel on it and be legal without the tax stamp. If it was either a pistol frame or "undesignated" from the factory then it can go either way- pistol or rifle and back and forth and be legal. It matters not what is on the 4473 form when you buy from a dealer- how the factory designated it is the way it stays for 'life'. If you have the frame and want to find out how it was designated, you should be able to call T/C with the serial number and find out. |
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Post by single_shooter on Oct 2, 2012 9:42:47 GMT -5
You are all correct!! 100% on this test!! LOL
A slight clarification though.
TC used to sell a Contender "COMBO" kit containing a frame and a rifle and a pistol barrel and both stock sets. The ATF had an issue with this because a weapon can only be designated as a pistol or a rifle when manufactured and must be sold as such.
The final understanding (and the reason TC no longer offers combo kits) is that when manufactured as a rifle you cannot legally use a pistol barrel on that frame...period...not even as a handgun (that equates to a sawed off shotgun)...unless you pay the appropriate ATF $200 tax and have the frame registered as an SBR. (short barreled rifle) then you can use a pistol length barrel with a shoulder stock as well as being a full rifle or a handgun.
ATF rules say it is illegal to make a long gun a handgun (shortening the barrel length of a rifle or a shotgun)...but you CAN make a handgun a long gun...sooo....their ruling with TC also stated that once you place a rifle barrel on a pistol frame it is now a long gun and after that point putting a pistol barrel on it is illegal. So basically they are saying that you cannot swap between rifle and pistol on the same frame (not even a pistol frame) without breaking their laws as they interpret them.
BUT....I have been using Encores and Contenders for years and have been stopped by DNR officers on many occasions and have yet to have any of them even look at my weapon. In fact...there was only one officer who even asked what caliber my pistol was. They only seemed interested in whether or not I had the proper license on me.
The truth of government in action...did we get our money from you??
I personally do not worry about what my frame was originally built since, as was correctly stated before by DANF, an officer would have to call TC to figure out if you are breaking that particular law and that is not going to happen in a corn field on a Sunday morning during deer season. All the local boys care about is if you have your license and you are using a legal caliber.
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Post by danf on Oct 2, 2012 19:21:11 GMT -5
their ruling with TC also stated that once you place a rifle barrel on a pistol frame it is now a long gun and after that point putting a pistol barrel on it is illegal. *sigh*.... www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf(my emphasis in the below quote) [/color] (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.[/quote] |
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Post by single_shooter on Oct 16, 2012 17:16:18 GMT -5
danf...you can quote the laws you find online all you want but it does not show the letters of opinion and the directives the ATF has issued to individuals and companies. TC is just one of the many.
Selling a kit gun as a handgun with a rifle barrel and rifle stock set does not violate any law according to what you have quoted here....so ask why would the ATF tell TC to stop selling them in this manner?? Because they can. Because they don't like it....because it is a grey area...or any other reason they can come up with. BUT...it did occur...TC was told to cease sales of their kits and they were told it was in direct violation of ATF guidelines and that a weapon must be sold as a handgun or a long gun...not both.
This is the same reason that Mossberg no longer sells a basic shotgun with a pistol grip in the box as they used to do when I was a kid.
I don't want to get into big discussion of the legalities of weapons.
I have had many people tell me that my Remington 870 pistol with a 10 inch barrel is illegal...but it is not illegal.
There are overlapping laws that cover this subject not just the one law you have quoted here...that's the way the legal system works so if they can't screw you one way they will get you another. I am not an attorney and make no claim to know everything about this...I just know what I have seen and read and discussed with friends who have been through this with the ATF and it is so convoluted it is ridiculously vague and open to interpretation by them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 6:02:35 GMT -5
The bottom line is that unless you use the gun in a crime, there is no reason for anyone to check to see how the weapon was sold. That could take days or weeks to track anyway. It won't happen just because your checked by a CO in the field and happen to be carrying a Contender or Encore.
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Post by single_shooter on Oct 18, 2012 10:49:34 GMT -5
nope - never even raised an eyebrow of a CO. had a couple county deputies who saw it and had to ask just what it was since they had never seen one like it before...lol
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