|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 8:41:18 GMT -5
Okay, one feeble attempt here. For the sake of non-argument, basically it equals an extra 6k (6,000) additional bucks per year for the most part. According to figures, I think that amounts to 10% increase in bucks taken per year, at most. FYI, deer reproduce! That is if the 6,000 that the bowhunters didn't get wasnt knocked off in the gun or MZ season. Sort of affirmative action deer hunting. Take away from one to give to another. It is a fact that the early season bowhunter killed buck numbers are way down while the gun killed buck numbers are way up. Do you have bowkill numbers for the 9 years prior to the OBR and the 9 years since the OBR? According to the limited data you posted earlier it looks like we bowkilled more bucks in 2009 with a OBR than we did in 1999 with the TBR. Of course cherry picking data doesnt really tell the whole story .......
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 8:53:36 GMT -5
That is if the 6,000 that the bowhunters didn't get wasnt knocked off in the gun or MZ season. Sort of affirmative action deer hunting. Take away from one to give to another. It is a fact that the early season bowhunter killed buck numbers are way down while the gun killed buck numbers are way up. Do you have bowkill numbers for the 9 years prior to the OBR and the 9 years since the OBR? According to the limited data you posted earlier it looks like we bowkilled more bucks in 2009 with a OBR than we did in 1999 with the TBR. Of course cherry picking data doesnt really tell the whole story ....... No, I do not. The numbers are from the posted Deer Reports at the DNR webpage. They only go back to 1999. 1999 through 2001 there was a very nice trend upwards. First year of the OBR the bottom dropped out on early archey bow killed bucks. Here it is again.. Early Archery Buck Kills…1999 - 9,067 2000 - 10,935 2001 - 12,016 Pre-OBR Average - 10,6732002 - 7,397 (DROPPED 4,619)2003 - 9,084 2004 - 7,985 2005 - 8,845 2006 - 9,390 2007 - 9,715 2008 - 9,193 2009 –10,076 2010 – 8,930 Post OBR Average - 8,957Difference – minus 1,716 ( - 16.1%)Jim Mitchell said that “the bowhunters shot themselves in the foot supporting the OBR” and he was right. Firearm (Shotgun and MZ) Buck Kills 1999 – 37,075 2000 – 33,500 2001 – 36,082 Pre OBR Average- 35,5522002 – 39,560 2003 – 46,488 2004 - 43,107 2005 – 43,393 2006 – 39,438 2007 – 39,394 2008 – 41,431 2009 – 42,596 2010 – 43,057 Post OBR Average – 42,052Difference – Plus 6,500 (+ 18.2%)Interesting in that the "6,500" is just about what the double dippers were doing. Where is the "buck savings"?
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 9:10:53 GMT -5
k.
I think your average for post OBR bowkill is off though .... looks like it is 8957 to me. A difference of 1716 from the 3 year pre OBR average.
Just curious .... when you post things like:
You arent really implying that you feel there would not have been more bucks killed under a TBR are you? Assuming that is not what you are implying .... why ask the question?
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 9:18:51 GMT -5
I really wish there was more data available .... would tell a much better story.
The numbers here dont show these "double dippers" very well. If 6000 folks killed a buck with both archery gear and firearms .... and the archery average has only fallen off roughly 1700 deer from before the OBR .... there are either more hunters or the same number of hunters are just having more success.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 9:35:56 GMT -5
k. I think your average for post OBR bowkill is off though .... looks like it is 8957 to me. A difference of 1716 from the 3 year pre OBR average. Thanks for catching that. I've corrected it.Just curious .... when you post things like: You arent really implying that you feel there would not have been more bucks killed under a TBR are you? Assuming that is not what you are implying .... why ask the question? Not implying that at all. I'm rebutting the folks that say "we saved 6,000 bucks a year". Just because the early archery bowhunter is not killing them does not mean that they are not dying in the gun or MZ season. I'm quite sure that the single season gun or MZ hunter realy appreciates the bowhunters pasing up those bucks.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 9:39:09 GMT -5
I really wish there was more data available .... would tell a much better story. I've asked Chad for the 9 years previous to the OBR. You do understand that we are getting into ancient history and a WAY different times, don't you? That is why I do not believe that the OBR can be compared to the OLD TBR.The numbers here dont show these "double dippers" very well. If 6000 folks killed a buck with both archery gear and firearms .... and the archery average has only fallen off roughly 1700 deer from before the OBR .... there are either more hunters or the same number of hunters are just having more success. You forgot about another piece of the equation. A larger herd. It is easier to kill a deer, buck or doe, when the herd is larger, right?
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 9:40:31 GMT -5
k. I think your average for post OBR bowkill is off though .... looks like it is 8957 to me. A difference of 1716 from the 3 year pre OBR average. Thanks for catching that. I've corrected it.Just curious .... when you post things like: You arent really implying that you feel there would not have been more bucks killed under a TBR are you? Assuming that is not what you are implying .... why ask the question? Not implying that at all. I'm rebutting the folks that say "we saved 6,000 bucks a year". Just because the early archery bowhunter is not killing them does not mean that they are not dying in the gun or MZ season. I'm quite sure that the single season gun or MZ hunter realy appreciates the bowhunters pasing up those bucks. But the bowkill has only fallen off 1700 or so .... not the 6000. We are just plain killing more deer than before. Still lagging behind with archery gear but id say chances are pretty good of catching and passing what we did before the OBR.
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Feb 21, 2012 10:01:48 GMT -5
But the bowkill has only fallen off 1700 or so .... not the 6000. We are just plain killing more deer than before. Still lagging behind with archery gear but id say chances are pretty good of catching and passing what we did before the OBR. BINGO......
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 10:03:07 GMT -5
But the bowkill has only fallen off 1700 or so .... not the 6000. You think we only had 1700 "double dippers?"
I think that some bowhunetrs got to a point where they quit passing certain bucks just to see them drop on opening day of the gun season.We are just plain killing more deer than before. Still lagging behind with archery gear but id say chances are pretty good of catching and passing what we did before the OBR. Only in an expanding herd situation. IF, and that is a big IF, the DNR ever gets the herd to where they want it then no season buck numbers will increase. .
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 10:07:10 GMT -5
I really wish there was more data available .... would tell a much better story. I've asked Chad for the 9 years previous to the OBR. You do understand that we are getting into ancient history and a WAY different times, don't you? That is why I do not believe that the OBR can be compared to the OLD TBR.The numbers here dont show these "double dippers" very well. If 6000 folks killed a buck with both archery gear and firearms .... and the archery average has only fallen off roughly 1700 deer from before the OBR .... there are either more hunters or the same number of hunters are just having more success. You forgot about another piece of the equation. A larger herd. It is easier to kill a deer, buck or doe, when the herd is larger, right? Didnt forget that .... just didnt specifically mention it. It falls under the "hunters are having more success" part. I could argue that even 5 years ago data is ancient history ..... lots of changes through the years.
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 10:10:51 GMT -5
But the bowkill has only fallen off 1700 or so .... not the 6000. You think we only had 1700 "double dippers?"
I think that some bowhunetrs got to a point where they quit passing certain bucks just to see them drop on opening day of the gun season.Nope ... just saying that the bowkill has only fallen off 1700.
You do have an interesting habit of "guessing" why other hunters do something.We are just plain killing more deer than before. Still lagging behind with archery gear but id say chances are pretty good of catching and passing what we did before the OBR. Only in an expanding herd situation. IF, and that is a big IF, the DNR ever gets the herd to where they want it then no season buck numbers will increase. .
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 10:14:37 GMT -5
You forgot about another piece of the equation. A larger herd. It is easier to kill a deer, buck or doe, when the herd is larger, right? Didnt forget that .... just didnt specifically mention it. It falls under the "hunters are having more success" part. I could argue that even 5 years ago data is ancient history ..... lots of changes through the years. Yes there is and was.. The DNR somehow is using the antlerless kill as a positive point for the OBR when we all know that the deer herd numbers are up, the bonus permits numbers are up big time, there are more UDZs, there was a change where bonus permits were good statewide instead of by counties (IOW - we can now kill 450+ deer instead of just a county limit) and the bowhunters could fill their bonus tags in early archery.
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 10:16:04 GMT -5
But the bowkill has only fallen off 1700 or so .... not the 6000. You think we only had 1700 "double dippers?"
I think that some bowhunetrs got to a point where they quit passing certain bucks just to see them drop on opening day of the gun season.We are just plain killing more deer than before. Still lagging behind with archery gear but id say chances are pretty good of catching and passing what we did before the OBR. Only in an expanding herd situation. IF, and that is a big IF, the DNR ever gets the herd to where they want it then no season buck numbers will increase. . Should have quoted the post I was commenting on when I originally posted that comment. I went back and referenced your post that I was commenting on.
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 10:22:16 GMT -5
Only in an expanding herd situation. IF, and that is a big IF, the DNR ever gets the herd to where they want it then no season buck numbers will increase. . One complaint is that the woods is awfully crowded during gun season .... some guys might decide to pick up a bow (or even xbow ....) and head to the woods in October. In my family alone my dad is showing more interest in xbow hunting, my wife wants to start this year and my oldest daughter will as soon as she is physically able to. Not saying that kind of trend will resonate throughout the state but i would not be surprised to see archery kills increase even with a stable herd and overall stable kill numbers.
|
|
|
Post by jjas on Feb 21, 2012 10:33:32 GMT -5
Only in an expanding herd situation. IF, and that is a big IF, the DNR ever gets the herd to where they want it then no season buck numbers will increase. . One complaint is that the woods is awfully crowded during gun season .... some guys might decide to pick up a bow (or even xbow ....) and head to the woods in October. In my family alone my dad is showing more interest in xbow hunting, my wife wants to start this year and my oldest daughter will as soon as she is physically able to. Not saying that kind of trend will resonate throughout the state but i would not be surprised to see archery kills increase even with a stable herd and overall stable kill numbers. I too wonder what the numbers will look like this year with xbow inclusion. Will the archery numbers go up, will firearms numbers drop, so it nets about the same? Or will more deer be killed overall? Regardless, it's nice to hear that your dad, wife and daughter may get out there this year. That's why I supported xbow inclusion. To hopefully get more folks out there, enjoying hunting.
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 10:36:39 GMT -5
Just for clarification ... dad will use the xbow but he was already able to use one because of physical handicap.
My wife ... she actually refuses to use one and insists on me buying her a vertical bow and using it. Same with the daughter.
The way I worded the original post was confusing ....
|
|
|
Post by dadfsr on Feb 21, 2012 10:53:32 GMT -5
One complaint is that the woods is awfully crowded during gun season .... some guys might decide to pick up a bow (or even xbow ....) and head to the woods in October. In my family alone my dad is showing more interest in xbow hunting, my wife wants to start this year and my oldest daughter will as soon as she is physically able to. Not saying that kind of trend will resonate throughout the state but i would not be surprised to see archery kills increase even with a stable herd and overall stable kill numbers. I too wonder what the numbers will look like this year with xbow inclusion. Will the archery numbers go up, will firearms numbers drop, so it nets about the same? Or will more deer be killed overall? Regardless, it's nice to hear that your dad, wife and daughter may get out there this year. That's why I supported xbow inclusion. To hopefully get more folks out there, enjoying hunting. I know that I will now be out during archery season because of the crossbow inclusion. I don't think that means I'll be taking anymore deer than usual though.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 11:16:34 GMT -5
Today at 9:40am, swilk wrote:
We all "guess" dont we? You even "guessed" that the bow killed buck numbers will return to the pre-OBR days.
The thing is one method (mostly two season hunters) dropped 16% and the other method (mostly one season hunters?) increased 18%. 1,700 does not sound like a lot until you look at the total kills and look at the percentage drop as compared to gun/MZ percentage increase..
|
|
|
Post by swilk on Feb 21, 2012 11:23:09 GMT -5
Kudos for using the word "mostly" ......
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2012 11:26:22 GMT -5
So please do explain how one method can drop a huge percent while another method goes up a huge percent if not for the effects of the OBR?
|
|