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Post by drifter on Feb 21, 2008 18:10:46 GMT -5
It's absolutely a generational thing.....dominated by sales and marketing. Every time you watch a Monster Buck video or Truth About Hunting video, your being subliminally sold on trophy hunting. When was the last time you saw Bill or Will take a 115" buck. Good for them and their success, but the younger generations are trying to hunt the way these guys do and its not possible. Steven Backs, the Indiana turkey biologist, calls this "hunting porn". Pretty good comparison if you ask me. These video aren't the way it is and shouldn't be used to gauge success. I know, because I'm a victim. I was brought up on these videos, and for years bought their sales and marketing pitch. Thankfully, I matured in my hunting mentality.
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Post by drifter on Feb 21, 2008 18:18:07 GMT -5
Also, what about the challenge of the hunt. I don't want to see a book buck every 1, 2 or even 3 times in the field. The excitement would die and the value of a "record book buck" would be diminished. The challenge, keep it alive.....
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 21, 2008 18:18:57 GMT -5
Any decent habitat in Indiana is going to produce big antlers. Define "big". I don't believe we can consistantly produce 200" bucks like Western Illinois (Golden Triangle) and Western Wisconsin or even Iowa. We don't have the soils and the northern genetic strain of whitetails here. How long has that 195 1/8 typical stood up as state record? 22 years? I'll tell you what short seasons out of the rut will get you - deer drives. The only way to get big bucks to move out of rut is to push them and push them they will. Now, nothing aginst deer drives IF that is the way one wants to hunt/shoot deer. But I think if we asked deer hunters in Indiana the majority would rather gun hunt them the way we do now and the same length of time - if not longer. No, no one needs a booner every year, but some folks are sure trving to do that. Even if it means taking away more opportunity from other hunters. I'm happy at one chance at a mature buck a year. You said that we are going to have some "banner years" but that doesn't seem to be enough. LOL.... folks on here have never been bashful, no matter which side of the fence they are on. . That's good cause I believe that is all that will happen.. at least for the duration of the "trial".
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Post by huxbux on Feb 21, 2008 20:04:13 GMT -5
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Post by huxbux on Feb 21, 2008 20:28:37 GMT -5
This is quite possibly the single most important factor in determining antler growth IMO. The prevalence of soil types conducive to antler growth in individual Indiana counties can be correlated to a greater number of larger bucks being taken in those counties.
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Post by outdoorswithdon on Feb 21, 2008 21:17:26 GMT -5
Gentlemen,
Lots of good questions and important points have been made on this subject. I appreciate the intelligent side of this debate. I won’t address personal attacks or juvenile taunts. The few of you that engage in that stuff are embarrassing yourself.
Statements here implying this column was simply intended to address my own isolated issues with trespassers are wrong. In fact, those of us that speak-up on hunting websites are the vocal minority. 97 percent of Indiana is privately owned. And of those owners that hold parcels big enough for hunting, my guess is many do not hunt. Most certainly do not look at hunting websites or comment to anyone outside the law when they have problems. If any of you think I’m wrong, ask any CO in any Midwest state what their busiest time of year is. 90 % will tell you it’s deer gun season.
The facts also don’t support those who reason that this is simply a poaching issue and that poachers don’t respect seasons anyway. I agree that hard core, career poachers who operate year-round don’t stop when season ends. They’re not the problem. If they were, CO’s would get the same volume of calls all year. They don’t. Not even close. The truth is, it’s the guy who throws caution to the wind to sneak in once a year, or the guy who sits on the fence and can’t resist the buck on the other side. It’s the guy who buys slugs at Walmart the night before season or shoots at anything that moves just to fill a tag. It’s the guy who doesn’t break the law all year, but loses all of his morals and values when he didn’t kill enough deer as season is winding down. These guys are our problem, and a long season is their playground. It is a lot easier to get away with an illegally shot deer in the back of your truck while gun season is still in. After it closes, only the career poachers are left in the woods and on the back roads. As a land owner, I can live with losing a few to those guys. I can’t fend off an entire army, however. At least not for a month.
My newspaper column runs in about 100,000 papers in Indiana every week. That is far more than look at any Indiana hunting website every week, and is certainly a better cross section of Hoosiers than is represented here. Those people are chiming in on this column too, and guess where they are falling? That’s right, they think our gun season is a problem and too long too. I wrote this piece partially because I have problems on my 200 acres, but mostly because this subject fills my email inbox more than any other. And like it or not, the bulk of the complaints I receive are from people looking for advice on how to stop trespassers during gun season.
Anyone who thinks the easy answer to the problem is to work with their local CO hasn’t tried that method lately. It worked for me once when I walked a CO up to a bloody deer in February and the guy with the still loaded gun. Short of that, we’re mostly on our own. There just aren't enough CO's to cover an entire state. How many of you have hidden trail cams on all of your entry points or carry a camcorder with you every time you hunt just to catch trespassers? If you don’t, you should expect the violation of your property to continue for 32 days. And even if it doesn’t - it could. And that ”could” forces landowners to patrol their property for 32 days.
I’m not surprised by quotes from the DNR survey that show hunters are satisfied with the season. Why shouldn’t they be, most of them don’t pay near the price landowners do. A more accurate survey would include all landowners of parcels, say 10 acres or larger. I’d bet the results would be a lot different, but it sure would finally include everyone affected by our gun season. I say that to make a point only. I frankly hope we never survey everyone who is affected by deer season. We would probably lose the whole season.
Lastly, thanks for the offers to hunt my place. I sincerely do believe most guys here are the kind of hunters I would want around. But as do all of my other landowner friends, I already allow as many hunters on both my places as they can withstand. As I find bad ones, I weed them out.
Don
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Post by hornharvester on Feb 21, 2008 23:42:08 GMT -5
No personal attacks Don just good debate. I have 123 acres in Allen County and have hunters surrounding my property and I don't have a problem with trespassing or do I worry about one of them shooting me. I don't know where your property is but there are local law enforcement agencies beside CO's that will arrest someone for trespassing. I highly suggest you contact and work with them.
As I said earlier your reasons to cut the length of gun season are some of the most self serving Ive ever read. h.h.
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Post by duff on Feb 22, 2008 7:51:09 GMT -5
And frankly a very disturbing approach to shorten the gun season. Ask the guys who were prepairing to fight the legislation or proposed rules this past month on limiting duck hunting on rivers, or the people who lost hunting rights on Geist Resivoir.
I know that you know exactly what you are doing. It is a disgrace. I hope Indiana hunting and hunters are not crippled by your attempts to get a shorter season.
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Post by freedomhunter on Feb 22, 2008 8:31:07 GMT -5
Don is right on with his points, again. If you control large pieces of hunting ground and don't live there, it is a constant struggle over the long firearms season. Especially if you've created sanctuaries and/or you have public roads around your good hunting ground. That being said, I'm not a believer in getting what you want in round-about ways, that is just smarmy, to me. I think Don needs to be more up front and mention the management advantages and the "trophy" potential in every write up.
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Post by tenring on Feb 22, 2008 8:36:21 GMT -5
Any decent habitat in Indiana is going to produce big antlers. The long firearms season and timing during the rut is what keeps the trophy hunting second class to our neighbors to the east a and west and states like Iowa. I don't need a booner every year, neither does many of the other members on this site, we are looking at a couple chances at something mature every year, that's all. Those guys won't chime in and I'm not going to be the dog, I definitely see the issue with less hunting opportunities, believe me. I can be happy with the OBR, but things can always improve. Just when is the rut for the 2008 deer season in relationship to the gun season?
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Post by danf on Feb 22, 2008 9:08:46 GMT -5
Sorry, but if I'm going to knowingly sneak onto a property where I *don't* have permission to hunt, it's certainly NOT going to be during gun season!!! Shoot something and everyone within a mile will know it and know the general area where you are. I don't trespass, but if I was going to do it, it would be during bow season- much quieter kill, and about a 100% chance of getting away with it. Much lower chance during gun season, not to mention any other hunters you encounter will probably be armed too......... I agree, there is more to this article than protecting the "landowners". If it's truly a problem, why not push for more public land instead of shortening the gun season? ?
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 22, 2008 9:11:27 GMT -5
Don,
I think this is the 3rd or 4th time that I’ve said this – You and the “landowners” that have emailed you have an ENFORCEMENT ISSUE. If the COs and sheriff’s departments are not doing what they are supposed to do, take it up with their superiors. Burn a few poachers and trespassers and the word gets out to stay away from Don’s place.
By ”papers” I think you are referring to copies of papers going to individuals. Right? I do not believe that there are 100,000 “papers” in Indiana. One would wonder how many of the subscribers even read your column? Not sure how many non-hunting farmers, non-hunters or housewives turn to the outdoor page in any newspaper.
Regardless you do seem to have some sort of bully pulpit that you can espouse your views and opinions. With a bully pulpit comes a high degree of responsibility. If you use your bully pulpit to further your agenda or take care of what you perceive is a problem AT THE EXPENSE OF HUNTING - it is wrong.
As you know there are a good number of people that not only would buy into shortening the deer season, but eliminating it altogether. People like that will search out columns written by outdoor writer/hunters for any morsel they can use in their campaign to stop all hunting.
By including such things as the opinion of “It is just an unsafe time for landowners,” you have just added fodder for their anti-hunting cannon.
No doubt if you pursue this shortening of the deer gun season you will get an unholy alliance of the anti-hunters backing you 100%. Of course you will get some hunter support from the “antler worshippers’ that want a shortened season to fit their “I want a big buck” agenda. Both are totally wrong.
Their “problem” with what they perceive as too long a season has nothing to with “landowners”. In fact, one even said the landowner thing was “BS”. They want it in an attempt to grow big bucks. IOW – “We want to be like Illinois, Ohio, Kansas, Iowa, etc, etc, etc.” You said that your column wasn't about that, right?
The surveys as also pointed out that the majority of Indian deer hunter wanted quite the opposite of what you propose – They want the gun seasons lengthened, not shortened.
I think that would be a great idea too. Give the gun hunter more time to be more selective in which buck they want to hunt and shoot. Couple that with an either sex gun tag and the percent of big bucks roaming our woods will sky rocket.
Don,
I have a request. From now on when you write a column ask yourself one question. “By writing and publishing this column am I doing harm to hunting”? If the answer is YES, then don’t publish it. You have an awesome responsibility to not harm, but promote hunting.
If you asked yourself that question on this column with some deep, serious soul searching you would have to answer “YES, this does hurt hunting”.
I’m not asking for any retraction of the column, just more careful consideration of all of hunting the next time that you write a column.
WW
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Post by danf on Feb 22, 2008 9:16:59 GMT -5
By including such things as the opinion of “It is just an unsafe time for landowners,” you have just added fodder for their anti-hunting cannon. That is no better than Skip Hess in the Indy Star quoting HSUS a year or two ago in support of what he was saying....
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Post by duff on Feb 22, 2008 9:25:56 GMT -5
It was not a very well thought out article. It proves he is blinded and willing to do anything in an attempt to get what he wants. A SHORTER GUN SEASON. Protecting the landowners stratigy will do much more harm to Indiana hunting and hunters. It is a hard battle to fight emotional issues.
Next article I expect to see how a shorter gun season will help keep children safe!
It is disgusting to see this type of ploy taken by one of our own "hunter". Makes me wonder if he has been sitting back watching the rest fight to keep hunting rights and losing some rights in the name of "safety". It's all to fresh I can take a "republican" taking our rights away, expect "democrats" to do the same, NEVER would I have thought an "outdoor writer" who claims to be a hunter try the same tactics. A TRUE DISGRACE.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 22, 2008 9:27:24 GMT -5
Any decent habitat in Indiana is going to produce big antlers. The long firearms season and timing during the rut is what keeps the trophy hunting second class to our neighbors to the east a and west and states like Iowa. I don't need a booner every year, neither does many of the other members on this site, we are looking at a couple chances at something mature every year, that's all. Those guys won't chime in and I'm not going to be the dog, I definitely see the issue with less hunting opportunities, believe me. I can be happy with the OBR, but things can always improve. Just when is the rut for the 2008 deer season in relationship to the gun season? Indiana's deer gun seoasn is November 15 - November 30. That starting date would be the tail end of the rut. Kentucky has moved their gun season up from last year . They do that deliberately to coincide with the rut better. Their dates are - November 8 – November 23. Of course some point to Kentucky as a trophy state when pushing the OBR. They become shut mouthed and say "Indiana isnt Kentucky" when the subject of hunting a long season IN the rut is brought up. "Cherry pickers" .
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Post by drs on Feb 22, 2008 9:28:47 GMT -5
Duff, Most Reporters & Writers are a bit on the Liberal side.
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Post by freedomhunter on Feb 22, 2008 9:43:45 GMT -5
I don't know why all my posts need quoted by the administrater and picked apart. I'm not that much of a threat. I'm trying to see both sides (as I called Don out on his hidden agenda).
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 22, 2008 9:51:34 GMT -5
I don't know why all my posts need quoted by the administrater and picked apart. I'm not that much of a threat. I'm trying to see both sides (as I called Don out on his hidden agenda). "Picked apart"? Forget the "administrater" part. I'm posting as any member of this forum is allowed to do. If you will notice I've taken Don to task quite frequently too. "...not that much of a threat?" Not sure what you mean by that. We are all Indiana hunters just expressing our views. "Seeing both sides" is great. That is what debate is all about.
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Post by duff on Feb 22, 2008 10:24:39 GMT -5
Duff, Most Reporters & Writers are a bit on the Liberal side. Sorry to confuse the discussion, it has nothing to do with politics, just an example of who we know will come after our rights and who we don't expect to!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2008 12:04:01 GMT -5
The main thing is what a lot of you aren't considering.
Indiana DNR MUST retain the ability to controll the deer herd......mainly numbers here, especially does.
There are hundreds of ways that things could be changed to accomplish that. You could also not change anything until it's needed. OBR will result in a more diverse age structure on it's own, there is no current need to shorten or alter the season unless other changes are made to offset the harvest days lost.
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