bsk
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by bsk on Oct 13, 2007 6:41:06 GMT -5
BSK - so just to confirm... the farther north, the later the major breeding date? (i.e. spring foliage would appear later in far northern latitudes, so fawns would be dropped later the farther north...) Do you know of any data for Midwest latitudes or mid-south regions? On average, the rut is earlier in the North than the South, with early November being common peak breeding times north of the Ohio River. However, different fawn survival factors in the South can produce some very unusual localized peak breeding times. In the North, the primary fawn survival factors are fawns needing to be born late enough in the spring that late cold snaps don't harm newborns while at the same time fawns need maximum growing time during summer and fall for producing the needed body weight to survive severe winter conditions. A fawn birthing time of late May and early June fits that bill. The New Brunswick data displays a later peak breeding (late November) because a slightly later birthing date is required to protect newborn fawns from the occasional May cold-snap or snow that can occur in that region. In the South, severe spring/winter weather is not a concern for survival, so Nature will time breeding to produce fawns around other factors for survival, with peak food production often driving the process. However, there is one very unique rut timing in the Deep South and that is southern FL (the Everglades). That area is primarily standing water swamp for mile upon mile. Newborn fawns will certainly drown in these conditions. Yet, that area does have a dry season in January through March, when the swamps dry up. Nature has designed the rut in that area to be July and August so that fawns are born during the dry season in winter. IN hunters have it lucky in that the peak of breeding should be fairly similar throughout the state, with peak breeding ranging from Nov. 4 to 12 north to south. In the South, peak breeding dates in some states--depending on location--can be anywhere from mid-October to early February within a single state. Check out the peak breeding dates by geography for the state of Mississippi at: www.mdwfp.com/Level2/Wildlife/Game/Deer/deer_breeding.asp
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Post by bschwein on Oct 15, 2007 13:25:52 GMT -5
yep, the 5th through roughly the 15th is always exicting.
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Post by lugnutz on Oct 15, 2007 21:19:17 GMT -5
No disrespect, but i find that from the last weekend in October until around the second week in November that the deer are in the seeking and chasing phases of the rut. I don't really notice deer being locked down in the breeding cycle until about the 14th of November.
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bsk
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by bsk on Oct 16, 2007 6:48:54 GMT -5
lugnutz,
Two points:
First, "peak breeding" is just the mean (average) date of breeding. Yet even in a tightly timed rut, the entire breeding process (95% of all breeding) will take 5 to 6 weeks. However, the majority of the breeding will occur during what hunters call "the peak of the rut," which lasts around 10 days to two weeks. On average, this is when hunters see the most true estrus chases. Yet the entire process takes 5 to 6 weeks. Thus means estrus chases can be seen during that entire period, although they will be most frequent around the peak.
Second, when the maximum number of conceptions are occurring and when hunters see the most daylight activity can be two different things, depending on factors that influence daylight activity. Many consider "the period of the rut" to be the greatest influence on daylight deer activity, because GPS and radio-collar studies show that on average deer are most active during daylight during the rut. Yet if you look at day to day daylight activity, other factors can over-power the rut. After statistically testing as many factors I can think of against hunter observations, personally I think the weather is the strongest influence on daylight deer activity, since a sudden heat wave during the rut can over-power the influence of the rut and shut daylight deer activity down. With their winter coat in place and being at maximum fat deposition for the year, running around during the heat of the day could be quite dangerous for deer. It would be like a human running a few miles wearing a down parka in hot mid-day temperatures.
Although it is much less of an influence and doesn't actually alter breeding dates, I believe moon phases do influence daylight activity patterns.
So even though the rut occurs at the same time every year in a given location, "poor" conditions for daylight activity can mute how much of the rut hunters see during daylight. However, a sudden change in the influences, such as a change in the weather, can very rapidly shift breeding activity into daylight where hunters can see it.
These situations can produce hunters thinking the rut peaked at a different time than it really did. I worked on a research project in western GA, and in this project we collected enough fetuses to get very good breeding sequence dates. Before I released this information to the hunters at the end of the year, I would ask them when they saw the most rutting activity. Quite often, when hunters observed the most activity was not when breeding was peaking, and the difference between the two was often as great as two weeks.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 16, 2007 8:03:55 GMT -5
Good info BSK...
There has been several years that I can recall where we had a hot spell during the "rut time" and they just shut down during the day. You could shine at night and see them, but to get one to chase a doe by your stand in daylight? No way..
From personal observation I believe that a full moon can also cause them to seek sex and food more at night than in the daylight. As you said, not near as much influence as hot weather, but still enough to slow them down in the daylight.
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Post by freedomhunter on Oct 16, 2007 17:57:20 GMT -5
if you are not hunting the middle of the day the first two weeks of November, you are missing most, if not all, of the mature buck movement during daylight
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bsk
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by bsk on Oct 17, 2007 6:11:59 GMT -5
Good info BSK...There has been several years that I can recall where we had a hot spell during the "rut time" and they just shut down during the day. You could shine at night and see them, but to get one to chase a doe by your stand in daylight? No way.. From personal observation I believe that a full moon can also cause them to seek sex and food more at night than in the daylight. As you said, not near as much influence as hot weather, but still enough to slow them down in the daylight. Woody, I've been collecting detailed hunter observations and comparing them to moon conditions for over 20 years, and without question moon conditions affect daylight deer activity. I don't compare observation data to moon "phases" per se, but to the percent of the moon's surface that is illuminated (a measure of the amount of light reflected off the moon) and whether the moon is waxing (moving towards full) or waning (moving towards the new moon). My data indicates the lowest daylight activity occurs just as the moon is waxing towards full (more than 80% illuminated).
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Post by freedomhunter on Oct 17, 2007 8:13:13 GMT -5
I've observed really good deer movement during the afternoon when the moon is rising. Don't know why.
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Post by daworz on Oct 17, 2007 15:41:43 GMT -5
So when do you want to spend a all day sit? (North) ?
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Post by Hawkeye on Oct 17, 2007 18:28:19 GMT -5
So,by all accounts ,Looks like the Rut will be over when Gun season starts the 17th of Nov.
Any feed back?
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bsk
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by bsk on Oct 18, 2007 4:39:00 GMT -5
So,by all accounts ,Looks like the Rut will be over when Gun season starts the 17th of Nov. Any feed back? No, not over, but potentially at the "back side" of the peak. In locations where the rut is fairly tightly timed (no "trickle" rut), the "peak of the rut" is at the front end of the process and last for 10-14 days. Then the rest of the breeding slowly declines over the next 3-4 weeks. If the mean peak day is somewhere around Nov. 8, then that means the "peak of breeding" lasts from Nov. 1 through around Nov. 15, but breeding will decline from that point until the process is basically complete in mid-December. The "peak of the rut" is just when a slight majority of the breeding occurs. A gun season opener of Nov. 17 will still see some breeding, but the peak is probably just over. Now all that is based on when the peak date is. If it is as late as Nov. 12 or near abouts, the opener may be catching the tail-end of the peak.
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Post by jrbhunter on Oct 18, 2007 17:55:17 GMT -5
Within that days not to miss the woods would be November 5th thru the 9th. Dispite moon, rut, weather or hunting pressure..... those are historically the magical days in my area for big buck sightings!
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 20, 2007 15:47:35 GMT -5
Charles Alsheimer states October 30th to November 12th will be Primetime. Within that days not to miss the woods would be November 5th thru the 9th. Charlie is a friend of mine, and he's a great guy, but his idea that the rut is driven by the Hunter's Full Moon (2nd full moon after the fall equinox) is a load of doo-doo. His idea has been disproved repeatedly. Now without question moon phases affect daylight deer movement patterns, changing the amount of activity hunters see during daylight. But moon phases do not change breeding dates. Remember that the vast majority of breeding occurs at night, when no one sees it. To test this idea that the Hunter's Moon drives the breeding process, a couple of years ago a large number of the top white-tailed deer researchers in the world pooled all their fetal conception date data and compared that data to Hunter's Full Moon dates each year. If the Hunter's Moon date drives breeding, the peak of breeding for each location would be the same number of days after the full moon date. Yet that isn't what they found at all. They found what had been known for decades, that the peak breeding dates for any given location are the same from year to year, not varying more than a couple of days difference over the entire period, no matter how many years of data they looked at. Obviously, the full moon has no influence on breeding dates. Photoperiod (the length of the nights as the nights get longer in fall) drives localized breeding dates. In addition, each given location can see a very different peak breeding date. This is well established. Breeding dates can be very late in parts of the South, while much earlier in the far North. However, this rule doesn't always hold true. Some areas of the Deep South have very early peak breeding dates, even earlier than in the North. For instance, peak breeding dates along the SC and GA coasts are in mid to late October. Unique peak breeding dates are genetically programmed into localized deer herds. The actual dates will be perfected by Natural Selection to produce fawns at the optimal time of year for fawn survival. As an example of how breeding dates don't vary from year to year, and aren't linked to the Hunter's Full Moon, some great data was published in an article in the latest issue of Quality Whitetails magazine. This article displays some very good fetal conception date data from Canada (New Brunswick). Charlie claim's that the affects of the full moon on the rut are stronger the farther north the deer are, so data from Canada should show the affects of the Hunter's full moon strongest. Yet fetuses from over 1,600 does over a nine year period showed peak breeding dates occur on or about the exact same date every year, while the date of the full moon ranged--during this study--over a 22 day period. The data shows: Year-----Peak Breeding Date--Hunter's Full Moon Date 1997-------Nov. 27-------------------Nov. 14 1998-------Nov. 29-------------------Nov. 4 1999-------Nov. 28-------------------Oct. 25 2000-------Nov. 29-------------------Nov. 12 2001-------Nov. 29-------------------Nov. 1 2002-------Nov. 26-------------------Oct. 21 2003-------Nov. 27-------------------Nov. 9 2004-------Nov. 26-------------------Oct. 28 2005-------Nov. 23-------------------Nov. 16 Unequivocally, the full moon does NOT have anything to do with the peak of breeding. It is linked to the calendar date in each specific geographic location. Many, many large fetal data sets from across North America like the one above exist, and they all show the same thing; the moon has nothing to do with the peak of breeding. Hmmmm bks-that hasn`t been my observation at all-I`ve seen the rut phases vary in the same woods from year to year by as much as a couple weeks. Hot weather and hunting pressure don`t push it out, but instead it just happens more under cover of darkness, but I find it hard to explain what accounts for the difference in timing if it isn`t the moon, since the amount of decreasing daylight doesn`t vary from year to year. Hmmmmmm.
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bsk
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by bsk on Oct 21, 2007 7:41:38 GMT -5
Hunter480,
You answered your own question, when you stated,"...that hasn`t been my observation at all...." Daylight observations of rutting activity may not match the actual rutting activity, because the majority of deer activity occurs at night. Assuming that observations of deer during daylight--the minority of their 24-hour activity and the time period when their activity is most influenced by other factors (weather, hunting pressure, etc.)--is indicative of all their 24-hour activity is a mistake.
Without question daylight deer activity is strongly influenced by weather conditions and secondarily moon conditions. But actual breeding (most of which occurs at night) is not.
However, in your defense, and the defense of every other hunter who feels these moon-rut predictions match their observations, even if the moon doesn't affect actual breeding, but does affect daylight rutting, from a hunter's perspective isn't that all that matters--what occurs during legal hunting hours? From a purely hunting perspective, that would be correct. All that matters to the hunter is what is occurring when they can see it and take advantage of it.
Now the question would be, even though the moon doesn't affect actual breeding, does it affect daylight rutting activity in a predictable manner (match Charlie's predictions)? That I have not seen tested on the large scale. I have seen small, individual club/property observation data, but not large-scale studies of hunter observations over an entire region/state.
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Post by daworz on Oct 21, 2007 10:33:57 GMT -5
Very interesting stuff.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 21, 2007 11:14:01 GMT -5
Hunter480, You answered your own question, when you stated,"...that hasn`t been my observation at all...." Daylight observations of rutting activity may not match the actual rutting activity, because the majority of deer activity occurs at night. Assuming that observations of deer during daylight--the minority of their 24-hour activity and the time period when their activity is most influenced by other factors (weather, hunting pressure, etc.)--is indicative of all their 24-hour activity is a mistake. Without question daylight deer activity is strongly influenced by weather conditions and secondarily moon conditions. But actual breeding (most of which occurs at night) is not. However, in your defense, and the defense of every other hunter who feels these moon-rut predictions match their observations, even if the moon doesn't affect actual breeding, but does affect daylight rutting, from a hunter's perspective isn't that all that matters--what occurs during legal hunting hours? From a purely hunting perspective, that would be correct. All that matters to the hunter is what is occurring when they can see it and take advantage of it. Now the question would be, even though the moon doesn't affect actual breeding, does it affect daylight rutting activity in a predictable manner (match Charlie's predictions)? That I have not seen tested on the large scale. I have seen small, individual club/property observation data, but not large-scale studies of hunter observations over an entire region/state. BKS- Very impressive attempt to misstate what I said-next will you want to know the definition of "is"? Since I now see how my words may be purposely misconstrued, let me say in a different manner- I have seen, myself, observable, daytime rutting activity occur as much as two weeks earlier or later, in the very same woods. I also dispute your assertion that the majority of rutting activity takes place at night-there aren`t shy high school freshmen, they`re animals, (some might state it`s all the same thing), but they chase and breed as opportunity presents itself, be that day or night. I have seen bucks, nose to the ground, in full daylight, running across county roads, apparently in pursuit of an estrus doe. I`ve witnessed a huge buck, in full daylight, pursuing a doe across a field multiple times before finally corralling her in a thicket. I`ve witnessed bucks come to my doe-n-heat urine anywhere from 7:00 am to 11:00 am. Many of the guys on this forum have stated that they`ve seen anywhere from the last week of October, up to and including the second week of November produce definite rutting activity, across many years of hunting. So, knowing the photoperiod doesn`t change from autumn to autumn, (photoperiod is the decreasing amount of daylight), and understanding that the seasoned observations of the men and women in this forum show that the rut does indeed occur across a timeframe of possibly a three week spread depending on the year, if the moon phase doesn`t trigger the rut, what does? SOMETHING has to account for the difference in timing.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 21, 2007 11:57:17 GMT -5
BKS- Very impressive attempt to misstate what I said-next will you want to know the definition of "is"? Since I now see how my words may be purposely misconstrued, let me say in a different manner- I don't think he "misconstrued" your post at all. He was not challenging your observations, but merely saying that we all see that because we are out there in the hunting hours - which just happen to be in the daylight. Since deer are by and large nocturnal animals I think his premise that most breeding happens at night is spot on. Consider any hot wetaher at all where deer do not naturally move as much in the daylight then you can bet your last dollar that breeding is much more done at night. Usually by the time rut rolls around all deer are in thier winter coats. The does dont move a lot in the heat and the bucks don't chase them as much in the daylight. Haven't we all? After all that is when we are out there. What we dont see is the chasing at night. "Rutting activity" and "breeding" can be one and the same and also quite different. "Rutting activity" starts with a little scrapeing, then seeking, then breeding, peak breeding and then post rut. Of course we see all this "rutting activity" if we are out there on an almost daily venture, but just because we see a buck dogging a doe does not mean that it is peak breeding. I've seen yearling bucks pester does in mid September before, a LONG way before peak breeding.. The "rut" will last 3 weeks OR more, but the peak breeding doesn't. You answered it yourself - the photoperiod. This is a question that some come down on both sides. If you and others believe that it is the moon that dictates when the actual breeding will occur in your area by all means keep on believing it. Me? I'll go with the gathered scientific data that says otherwise. Deer gestation periods are pretty well determenined to be 200 days. Just go backwards on the calender and see where you end up. My area's fawn drop is the last week in May and the first week in June. Back the calender up 200 days and you will get about November 10th - As I said earlier, my "belief" is that the breeding peaks on November 10th in my county of Warrick - no matter what moon is above.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 21, 2007 13:16:41 GMT -5
Maybe that`s where it lies then.....leaving it to opinion, as I know what I`ve seen for myself, and have my own deep held ideas about the rut’s timing. Plus, I didn`t realize I was being so ambiguous, but as I re-read what I posted earlier, I suppose I can see where it could be misunderstood. But when I say rutting activity, I was referring to actual chasing, NOT pushing dirt around or roughing up bark-THAT, is what rutting activity means when I use that term. It`s interesting to debate, to investigate and explore, and the only hard part is being open to new information when you`ve already made up your mind on the issue. For myself though, I agree with Alsheimer that since the amount of daylight per day doesn`t vary from year to year, and, I`VE seen such variability in the rut`s timing, that something else has to be at play, and the moon phase makes sense to me. Which ever side you come down on, bottom line is, being out all you can is how you grow in your knowledge, not to mention, spend your time in the best way I know of.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 21, 2007 13:59:40 GMT -5
Maybe that`s where it lies then.....leaving it to opinion, as I know what I`ve seen for myself, and have my own deep held ideas about the rut’s timing. Plus, I didn`t realize I was being so ambiguous, but as I re-read what I posted earlier, I suppose I can see where it could be misunderstood. But when I say rutting activity, I was referring to actual chasing, NOT pushing dirt around or roughing up bark-THAT, is what rutting activity means when I use that term. It`s interesting to debate, to investigate and explore, and the only hard part is being open to new information when you`ve already made up your mind on the issue. For myself though, I agree with Alsheimer that since the amount of daylight per day doesn`t vary from year to year, and, I`VE seen such variability in the rut`s timing, that something else has to be at play, and the moon phase makes sense to me. Which ever side you come down on, bottom line is, being out all you can is how you grow in your knowledge, not to mention, spend your time in the best way I know of. I refer you back to Reply 11 on this thread. These guys do this for a very good living. Their reputation, and thus their income, is on the line every time they do a research project. Charlie is right and the "large number of the top white-tailed deer researchers in the world" are wrong? I don't think so....
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 21, 2007 17:55:26 GMT -5
Maybe that`s where it lies then.....leaving it to opinion, as I know what I`ve seen for myself, and have my own deep held ideas about the rut’s timing. Plus, I didn`t realize I was being so ambiguous, but as I re-read what I posted earlier, I suppose I can see where it could be misunderstood. But when I say rutting activity, I was referring to actual chasing, NOT pushing dirt around or roughing up bark-THAT, is what rutting activity means when I use that term. It`s interesting to debate, to investigate and explore, and the only hard part is being open to new information when you`ve already made up your mind on the issue. For myself though, I agree with Alsheimer that since the amount of daylight per day doesn`t vary from year to year, and, I`VE seen such variability in the rut`s timing, that something else has to be at play, and the moon phase makes sense to me. Which ever side you come down on, bottom line is, being out all you can is how you grow in your knowledge, not to mention, spend your time in the best way I know of. I refer you back to Reply 11 on this thread. These guys do this for a very good living. Their reputation, and thus their income, is on the line every time they do a research project. Charlie is right and the "large number of the top white-tailed deer researchers in the world" are wrong? I don't think so.... No disrespect intended, and I don`t do this for a living, but........ My reputation is as important, and MORE important that what BKS does for a living-so............... I state again-just as YOU stated YOU don`t think so, it`s about opinion-PERIOD. MY OPINION is that Alsheimer is correct-yours and BSK`s is that Charlie is wrong, (even though BSK is a name dropper, and states he and Charlie are friends), so again- it comes down to opinions........ Sorry Woody.
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