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Post by danf on Jul 16, 2006 8:44:34 GMT -5
Let's look at this discussion from a different viewpoint.... From a herd management standpoint, the OBR makes sense. So many of today's hunters shoot only a few deer to fill the freezer. With the "if it's brown, it's down" mentality going away, it makes sense to regulate the bucks and increase the doe tags like has been done. Even including the fawns, the male deer harvest percentage has been decreasing ever since the OBR inception, while the doe and yearling doe harvest has been increasing. This means fewer deer in the long run, since those does won't be able to have offspring.  Now taking into account that most hunters who shoot button bucks don't realize they are buttons, the percentage changes when you consider the antlered versus antlerless harvest:  While there's no huge climbs or downfalls with either graph, there is an overall slight trend toward a bigger percentage of the harvest being antlerless every year. Without the OBR, there would be many hunters shooting a second buck instead of a doe to finish filling the freezer. With the state's herd being reported at near-record or record levels, why not do everything possible to keep in under control? We hunters are the single best resource for controlling the deer herd. While some believe that OBR wasn't about herd management in the beginning, it sure is now.... |
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 16, 2006 12:31:46 GMT -5
Let's look at this discussion from a different viewpoint.... From a herd management standpoint, the OBR makes sense. So many of today's hunters shoot only a few deer to fill the freezer. With the "if it's brown, it's down" mentality going away, it makes sense to regulate the bucks and increase the doe tags like has been done. I'm not against "regulating bucks". The question is where at what number do we regulate them and still not negatvely affect the herd, the opportunities AND the IDNR revenues? The two buck limit has served us VERY well in the past and was getting better every year BEFORE the One Buck Restriction. Your are mixing apples and watermelons here. The subject is really about antlered bucks. Throwing in the declining kill of male fawns with a increasing number of adult bucks just muddies the waters. Two VERY seperate categories. And that is how we should look at it. 3% or 4% gain or decline doesn't sound like much until we plug in that we are talking about a multiplcation of 125,000. I disagree. There are way too many folks that kill out in early archery season - maybe that buck and a doe and just flat sit out the fiream season. If they had a second buck tag they could be out there filling either that second buck and/or a bonus antlerless tag. Deer hunters cant kill deer or contribute dollars to the economy, the IDNR coffers or getting back more PR monies sitting at home. I am still a proponent of an either sex tag for firearms hunters so that when it gets down to crunch time they will fill that tag with a big old doe instead of a little buck. The ONLY two things that have made an impact on the herd management, which is the taking of does, is the HUGE jump in lifetime sales from the annual deer tag price increases (basicaly free tags) AND the allowance of bowhunters to take their bonus deer in early archery. |
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Post by danf on Jul 16, 2006 13:37:38 GMT -5
I don't disagree with that assesment, I just wanted to show it both ways.  Ok, so attempting to think outside the box here- setting aside the OBR completely- from a herd management standpoint, as well as an IDNR revenue standpoint, would it make sense for them to explore a single license that is good for the entire season, with unlimited tags? What I'm thinking would be similiar to the way lifetime licenses work, only it would need to be purchased annually. I think I'd be willing to cough up $100-125 before September 15 (or October 1) to know that NO MATTER WHAT deer walked by in WHATEVER season I could shoot it and have a tag for it. I don't remember the last time I bought or filled 4 or 5 tags in a season, but I'd still be willing to pay that amount rather than playing the guessing game.... I would imagine there are many others like me out there that would be willing to do the same. Not only would this help to increase revenue for the DNR, the fee could be adjusted on an annual basis, unlike a lifetime license. Some people might come out money ahead, but I think the DNR would average out the winner..... |
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Post by duff on Jul 16, 2006 20:05:39 GMT -5
Man I think we should limit the kiling of antlered deer to every even or odd year. I mean really why whould a hunter even begin to be upset as they can kill all the does they want in most cases, RIGHT??? Think of the jelous neighboring states we would have when we have record breaking big bucks every other year.....
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Post by duff on Jul 16, 2006 20:06:55 GMT -5
Oh and the only buck tags on the off years would be depridation permits for places like tree farms.
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Post by dbd870 on Jul 17, 2006 4:31:15 GMT -5
Definitely, what is it going take to get that through?
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Post by dec on Jul 17, 2006 6:36:06 GMT -5
WW - Believe it or not lots of folks hunt for the pure challenge of the hunt and find very little challenge in shooting does. I did not mean to make it sound like folks are in it for the kill and not the challenge. The challenge of that elusive mature buck is one of the primary reasons I'm out there. Harvesting does is fun, puts meat in the freezer, and yes you are right, it can be quite easy at times. But the real challenge comes from trying to find that old mature buck. If I did not do it for the challenge, I would not let several 120's and 130's bucks walk EVERY year. Sometimes you tag out early, sometimes you don't tag out at all. The challenge is there and is what you make of it. By the argument that you made, under a two buck rule, if you were fortunate to take a mature buck with a bow and turn around and take another on the shotgun opener, then you ought to be upset with the IDNR because you can't go out and hunt a third buck for the "challenge". The limit is the limit. Just as your personal preference is being able to take two bucks, mine is to being able take only one buck. Just because I've taken my one buck, no one ever said the hunting had to end. I'll still be out there hunting as hard as everyone else even after I've taken a buck. I'll be continuing to hunt the easy  to hunt does and trying to get a glimse of another mature buck that I might be able to get on video or might give me insight into how to hunt him next year. The "challenge" is what you make of it. |
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Post by mbogo on Jul 17, 2006 7:04:36 GMT -5
Step 1: Reduce the buck bag limit
Average Joe's Response:
Hmm, it didn't really effect me and I did see a few nice bucks last year so it must be a good thing. Maybe with some more changes I will see even more.
Step 2: Move firearms and muzzleloader seasons back a few week
Average Joe's Response:
Hmm, it didn't effect me that much and I did see a few nice bucks last year so it must be a good thing. Maybe with some more changes I will see even more.
Step 3: Shorten firearms and muzzleloader season.
Average Joe's Response:
Hmm, I wish I had another week to hunt but I did see a few nice bucks last year so I guess I can live with it. Maybe the seasons can be tweaked a little bit and it'll be even better.
Step 4, 5, 6: Add antler restrictions, Shorten Archery season, Buck tags by drawing only
Average Joe's Response: Is it really worth all of the hunting oppurtunity I gave up?
Mbogo: Where's it all going to end? How much oppurtunity are we willing to throw away after foolishness?
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Post by danf on Jul 17, 2006 17:16:05 GMT -5
Step 2: Move firearms and muzzleloader seasons back a few week Average Joe's Response: Hmm, it didn't effect me that much and I did see a few nice bucks last year so it must be a good thing. Maybe with some more changes I will see even more. Step 3: Shorten firearms and muzzleloader season. Average Joe's Response: Hmm, I wish I had another week to hunt but I did see a few nice bucks last year so I guess I can live with it. Maybe the seasons can be tweaked a little bit and it'll be even better. I don't believe that it would get to the point of your step 2, let alone your step 3. IDNR needs the shotgun hunters in the woods. Period. Moving the season back or even shortening it will cause such an uproar that they won't do it in the end. I could possibly see moving it, but making it shorter? Nope. Moving it will get it out of the rut even more than it is, which will get the hunters into the woods when the deer are not moving nearly as much, meaning not as many deer will be taken by the average Joe. Average Joe's don't take as many and that means less of a total harvest, which at this point in time and for the foreseeable future is NOT what IDNR needs/wants for herd management! |
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 17, 2006 17:41:45 GMT -5
DEC,
I'm not asking to be able to hunt three bucks.
On the a same token I'll bet you a just about any amount that the OBR wil not satisfy the antler worshippers.
They will go for:
1)... moving the gun season out of the rut,
2)a shorter gun season,
3) a shorter muzzleloader season..
4) no new hunting weapons,
5) draw for buck tags?
6) etc, etc,etc..
.
Right now my "challenge" is taking my money to Kentucky to hunt a second buck.. I can be in my KY stand in 1 hour. Not everyone can do that.
Too bad that Indiana doesn't want our second buck money...
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Post by kevin1 on Jul 18, 2006 5:11:25 GMT -5
DEC, On the a same token I'll bet you a just about any amount that the OBR wil not satisfy the antler worshippers. They will go for: 1)... moving the gun season out of the rut, 2)a shorter gun season, 3) a shorter muzzleloader season.. 4) no new hunting weapons, 5) draw for buck tags? 6) etc, etc,etc.. You're right about that Woody , but the DNR folks I've spoken with have said plainly that the antler obsessed will never get that since it takes away DNR's ability to properly manage the total herd . They suggest it at every proposal session , and it gets shot down for that reason every time . What's popular isn't always the best idea , and the folks we pay to keep our deer healthy know this . |
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Post by dec on Jul 18, 2006 6:37:22 GMT -5
Woody, I think that you are generalizing the "antler worshippers" a little too much.
Personally, I fall into the class of the "antler worshippers". I have no desire to shoot a buck that is not mature and meets what is a trophy standard to ME. My attitude towards antlers is not much different from many of the hunters that I know in my area.
I feel that OBR is a step in the right direction for management of the whitetail buck in our state. I believe that OBR does allow some of the younger bucks to graduate to the next level by forcing hunters who are "on the fence" in terms of what they consider a trophy to be more selective. I believe that OBR spreads out the "oportunity" to take a mature buck to more hunters.
Is OBR, the sole cause of the trends we've seen as represented by your data? Is it OBR as a stand alone issue the best for our herds? No. It is only a piece in the over all puzzle.
The "antler worshippers" that you refered to in your list above are in the small manority. Sure, there are those of us that do wish for such things, like moving guns out of the rut or a shorter gun season. Personally, I'd like to see it, but I also realize that doing so imposes tight restrictions on the single season hunter and I'm not convinced that that is good for hunting, or our herd numbers. So while a part of me would love to see it happen, I'd never press for an issue like that to be imposed.
I think you are demonizing the "antler worshippers" a little too much on this issue.
I'd even argue, that SOME of those who want the two buck limit back are the real "antler worshippers". SOME of these people want the oportunity to hunt and take two mature big racked bucks. Why? The meat could have come from a doe, so you can't justify the hunting of a second buck for putting meat on the table. The challenge could have come from hunting an old mature doe, or simply to video a mature buck, so you can't justify the hunting of a second buck for the "challenge". I comes down to the satisfaction of one massive set of head gear just does not fill their need for the season. That is a real "antler worshipper", IMO. Yet, those of us who are happy with one (or none) mature buck a year are the evil hunters.
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Post by dec on Jul 18, 2006 8:08:21 GMT -5
I'm not asking to be able to hunt three bucks. I never said that "you" wanted to hunt three bucks, or at least that is not exactly what I meant. What I meant was, that the logic of continuing to hunt bucks beyond the first tag, would support the logic to want to continue to hunt bucks beyond the second tag. At some point it has to end. When does the satisfaction with hunting bucks (i.e. antlers) end? I ask this as an "antler worshipper" who is more than content on hunting a single mature buck each year. There is pleanty of challenge in hunting deer beyond one mature buck. Want a challenge? Pick up a bow, don't climb a tree or sit in a blind. Go try and stalk on a doe or a couple does. There is a challenge. If the kill is not important, challenge yourself and your woodsmanship. Don't sit in a tree and whine that the INDR took away the "challenge" of waiting on a second buck to walk past your stand. Make it a challenge to hunt deer, if everything beyond a single mature buck is so easy. You (a general term) just might remember (or find for the first time) what the thrill of hunting actually is. |
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 18, 2006 8:56:28 GMT -5
I don't disagree with that assesment, I just wanted to show it both ways. Ok, so attempting to think outside the box here- setting aside the OBR completely- from a herd management standpoint, as well as an IDNR revenue standpoint, would it make sense for them to explore a single license that is good for the entire season, with unlimited tags? What I'm thinking would be similiar to the way lifetime licenses work, only it would need to be purchased annually. I think I'd be willing to cough up $100-125 before September 15 (or October 1) to know that NO MATTER WHAT deer walked by in WHATEVER season I could shoot it and have a tag for it. I don't remember the last time I bought or filled 4 or 5 tags in a season, but I'd still be willing to pay that amount rather than playing the guessing game.... I would imagine there are many others like me out there that would be willing to do the same. Not only would this help to increase revenue for the DNR, the fee could be adjusted on an annual basis, unlike a lifetime license. Some people might come out money ahead, but I think the DNR would average out the winner..... A couple of conversations back with Kyle Hupfer I suggest a "sportsman's license" like that of some other states. He said that was on his long list of possibilities. I think he could sell a lot of annual "lifetime licenses".. . |
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Post by steiny on Jul 18, 2006 17:58:45 GMT -5
I'm an antler addict, and I like OBR. I'd rather shoot one dandy buck every five years than two or more mediocre bucks every year.
Under the previous regs, many bow hunters would whack the first six pointer that walked by just to feed some wierd ego thing and tell their buddies "I got a buck with my bow". Saw it happen all the time. Now many of them won't do that, because they know they are done on bucks at that point. This simple rule change is allowing a few more bucks to reach maturity.
Now .... bring on a shorter firearms season, out of the rut, and I'd agree with a two buck limit.
Tons of opportunity out there to kill a bunch of bucks every year. Military & park hunts, urban zones, etc. And if you're still not satisfied, get in your car and drive to a neighboring state and kill another buck or two.
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Post by danf on Jul 18, 2006 19:28:35 GMT -5
I believe so too. Any way we can help to push that concept? dec- You and I think a lot alike on this issue (OBR vs. two bucks)! It's kinda scary just how much your thoughts echo mine. Dan |
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to hunt does and trying to get a glimse of another mature buck that I might be able to get on video or might give me insight into how to hunt him next year.
