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Post by jackryan on Aug 1, 2005 1:01:14 GMT -5
Jack, I had hoped your kind of paranoid, researched and rationalized logic had died with nuts like Ted Kazinski. God help us if the general population reads threads like this one, and thinks we all are this backwards. Step back a minute and realize you are arguing the right to not have to protect your child. That is supposed to be your primary concern as a parent - regardless of the sacrifice you have to make. No, I'm making the stand that it is my decision to make. It is also my responsibility to make the one I consider best for my child in our situation. An adult citizen in this country who is not competent to make that decision is not competent to be a parent and if that is the problem, that is the situation that needs addressed. Lawmakers and law enforcement have no role to play in this situation and the arrogance of some to presuppose to know better than the parent of a child whether they need something as simple as a seat belt or a car seat makes obvious there is no limit to what they would enforce given the opportunity and power. That's exactly the point I'm making. All of YOUR rights end at my door step mine begin. My kids are my business and not yours or anybody else's. MYOB And there's a heck of a lot more things I shouldn't have to explain to my kids, but because of an oppresive government elected by people who are worried about everybody's bussiness but their own, I have to any way. If you want to do some thing to protect kids, get those LEO's back to work getting drunks off the road and unlicensed drivers in jail instead of acting like a bunch of Barney's hanging around seat belt check points. I didn't say any one was beaten but there was little doubt who the parent was in this family and, yes, who is going to be in control. The child, the teachers, or me. I wouldn't say people can abuse children any more than any one else. Riding in a car is not abuse. It's been done since the automobile was invented. I highly recomend car seats and seat belts. I don't feel I have the right to ORDER YOU to use them. I can think someone is stupid not to, I can even say so. It's not the job of the state to protect the stupid from themselves. It's time the rest of the country stopped getting stuck with the bill for protecting stupid people from them selves, whether it is paying LEO's to chase seat belt violators instead of drunks and crooks or paying idiots to rebuild on a riverbank every other year. What's next? You going to jail smokers for smoking in the car with their kids? There is absolute irrefutable proof that is not good for kids. You might even be able to build a majority of "sheep" in this country who would help you go arrest them. Hundreds of thousands of kids have riden millions of miles with out any kind of restraint at all and with no injury of any kind. It is only a POSSIBILITY they will be injured. It is also a POSSIBILITY they will be injured any way or injured because they were restrained. It is the job of the parent to make those decisions which choice is best and which risk is more acceptable.
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Post by jackryan on Aug 1, 2005 1:16:13 GMT -5
Your "I can do what ever I want to my kids" logic is the most outrageous statement of all. Don, I went back to check for sure and I don't see any where I made that statement you put in quotes and attributed to me. I'd appreciate it if you point it out, or change your quote to reflect my exact words rather than what you read them to mean. Don, I don't know if you have kids or not, but a lot of people see this as just one simple little thing. "Get a clue. Wear your seatbelt!" It simply is not. It is just one small step of people who think they know better than you about every single aspect of every thing in existance. There is no end to orders these arrogant jerks will try to pass in to law or coerce everyone else in to, for their own good. Just go to the hospital with a pair of new parents on check out day some time. Most hospitals have their own little car seat concession. You rent from them or must bring in your own for their approval or they think they are going to hold YOUR kid hostage until you give in. After all, they are doctors. They see the results of accidents so they MUST know what's best for you. Well I've raised a couple of kids from conception to college and I've paid the way for several more through the government's income redistribution program and nobody on this planet has ever given me anything but a hard time and directions to the door. My kids are in college at my own expense and both have been consitent honor roll students from grade school to present. They don't use drugs, tobaco or alcohol, lie or cheat. I raised them exactly how ever I felt was right with out the slightes regard to what the public school said or any government official had to say. A couple of times they didn't even have a seat belt or a car seat and now they won't let any one in the vehicle with out one IF THEY ARE DRIVING. They know darn good and well what is THEIR busines and what is NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS. The state should be coming to ME for advice but, I'd not try to pass any laws to make any one else do what I think is right. If they want to know or don't care, it's their kids. Their business. My kids are mine and I'll continue to do exactly as I have all ways done. Regardless of what those bunch of dimwitts in the state legislature do.
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Post by outdoorswithdon on Aug 1, 2005 9:41:50 GMT -5
Jack,
My apologies for not quoting you exactly. What you said was "It's nobody's business what I do with my kids," and" (people who butt in) "are apt to get it punched if they don't get it shot off." If that doesn't clearly mean you will raise your response to violence in order to preserve the right to do whatever you want with your kids, it sure sounded like it. Sounds like that is not what you meant. I'm glad.
I suppose that is why it is ridiculous to argue on the internet with people we don't know. Anything can be typed in, and everything is open to interpretatioin. Sometimes wrongly.
And yes, I have a son and a daughter (8 and 12). Neither my wife or I have ever felt a need to spank, smack or lay a hand on either of them in anger, and they are doing just fine in the #2 ranking academic school system in Indiana. I realize 60-80 percent of Americans choose to spank their kids, and I think that is their business, I am just saying it is possible to get good results without hitting someone a fifth your size. But that requires controlling your temper, and most people can't do that. Everyone is always looks for the easy, quick fix in this world, and back-handing a little child in a grocery store will usually shut him up. Just know that when you do, it is almost guaranteed he will do the same to his kids, and a lot of guys don't stop there.
Sounds like you did a great job with your kids. I commend you on that. But parenting is about playing the odds, and while a lot of kids will grow up to be great parents / people despite getting whacked at home, some will not. Sorta like some kids will survive a crash without a restaint on, but some will not. Why not tip the odds in your kids favor at every turn and just play it safe.
If that means the government has to step in and protect children from rotten, selfish parents who won't buckle them up, so be it. Taking away my right to even potentially hurt a child becase I am too stupid / lazy to do otherwise is fine with me.
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Post by RiverJim on Aug 1, 2005 11:21:58 GMT -5
My sister died @ 19 Y/O "strapped in" and my nephew died @ 18 Y/O "strapped in". I've survived a few wrecks I was told I should of died in not strapped in. I bought truck plates for my jeep so I wouldn't have to wear a strap. But the family does strap in. My gals mom died in a wreck (not strapped in) cause she got hit in the temple by the ignition (keys) and now my gal insist on "strapping in" and I can't blame her. We just agree to disagree.
Whats next mandatory safety harnesses? I've been climbing trees since I was able to walk and have enough of a sence of self presavation to know what is safe or beyond MY capability!
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Post by greendeem on Aug 1, 2005 18:01:32 GMT -5
Indiana, Fort Wayne Journal Gazette Aug. 1, 2005
Autopsy shows Gary girl drowned after car crash
An autopsy has determined that a 2-year-old Gary girl who was thrown from a highway bridge in a car crash survived the accident but drowned in the Grand Calumet River.
The findings released Saturday by the Lake County Coroner’s Office support eyewitness claims that Jatima Green was moving when she surfaced in the river Wednesday night after plummeting from a sport utility vehicle about 40 feet overhead.
The coroner’s report also states that Green had a contusion on her forehead, but says there is no clear cause for that injury.
Green’s body was found in the river Friday, two days after she was ejected from a GMC Jimmy when it struck a concrete wall on the Cline Avenue exit ramp from the eastbound Indiana Toll Road.
In the crash, Green was thrown from an open window off of the bridge. She apparently was not wearing safety restraints.
Her body was recovered in a heavily industrialized area where the Grand Calumet River is coated with moss, algae and debris.
Here is a little something for those of you who "aint gonna alow no damn body to tell me how to raise my kids." You would think that the state wouldnt need to make such stupid common sense laws. But...There are still people who think they are safer without a seatbelt on, so I guess they feel the same goes for thier children. Jim are you actually being serious in saying you bought truck plate for your JEEP so you wouldn't have to buckle up? There is not a vehicle in the world that you would need a seat belt on any more than a jeep. But really I dont care, you are right you have the right to make that decision. I don't however feel that someone has that right to make that decision for their child.
jack ryan said "I certainly appreciate that law enforcement get a lot more training and "indoctrination" than shooting pop cans off the back porch. I've shot with more than a few and my father is retired from the sherrif's department. And I'm MORE than a little tired of hearing how a couple years in a uniform and suddenly people who couldn't pass government in high school think they are the only rational voice on safety laws for the whole population."
One thing most of those officers have that you don't is first hand experience. They dont make laws, they enforce them and offer up information they have learned by EXPERIENCE. Jack, I'm not sure if your referring to my education, but I have a BS Criminology and have spent plenty of time in the classroom. I have also spent plenty of time out in the real world, away from internet forums. Your little snide comments of violence against the police have changed my perception of you, I know your a lot different in person than you portray on these forums because I've met you, but your anti government propaganda is too much.
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Post by steiny on Aug 1, 2005 19:57:24 GMT -5
I kind of agree with Jack's rationale.
I buckle up religiously, my kids do and I always suggest my adult passengers do too. My rules in my car.
However, like Jack say's we don't need Big Brother to step in and legislate this stuff.
I'm not aware of any law on the books against beating your had against a cement wall, but most of us understand the results won't be good. Do we need a law against this too ?
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Post by RiverJim on Aug 2, 2005 8:52:06 GMT -5
Green, it's a grand cherkee
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Post by jackryan on Aug 3, 2005 2:24:37 GMT -5
Jack, Sounds like you did a great job with your kids. I commend you on that. But parenting is about playing the odds, and while a lot of kids will grow up to be great parents / people despite getting whacked at home, some will not. Sorta like some kids will survive a crash without a restaint on, but some will not. Why not tip the odds in your kids favor at every turn and just play it safe. If that means the government has to step in and protect children from rotten, selfish parents who won't buckle them up, so be it. Taking away my right to even potentially hurt a child becase I am too stupid / lazy to do otherwise is fine with me. "Playing the odds...", I don't think it could be stated any better. My contention is, it is THE PARENTS job to determine those odds and make those decisions. The place where our views diverge is I don't believe it is the state's right to interfere in MY raising of MY child because there is a small tiny minority of rotten, selfish parents. Taking away my right to discipline MY child becase of stupid / lazy abusive parents is not acceptable.
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Post by jackryan on Aug 3, 2005 4:01:00 GMT -5
One thing most of those officers have that you don't is first hand experience. They dont make laws, they enforce them and offer up information they have learned by EXPERIENCE. Jack, I'm not sure if your referring to my education, but I have a BS Criminology and have spent plenty of time in the classroom. I have also spent plenty of time out in the real world, away from internet forums. Your little snide comments of violence against the police have changed my perception of you, I know your a lot different in person than you portray on these forums because I've met you, but your anti government propaganda is too much. Little snide comments of violence against the police, ? Come on Greendeem. First off let's deal with this implication of indignation like I'm the only one making snide comments, exagerations or what ever you want to feel that badge makes you incapable of. "'ll say this and take the heat from anyone who wants to argue..You are an idiot if you dont wear a seat belt. You are an idiot who should go to prison if you dont put your child in a restraint. "IN PRISON? For no car seat? For an unbuckled seatbelt? Nothing on the internet has changed my opinion of you but if you AREN'T chumming this water a little of your own I may have to start thinking it over. That badge may be going to your head a little. I'm not refering to YOUR anything in particular, I am refering to what I know to be training they give officers with the deliberate intention to instill the confidence to allow them to make instant decisions with the full belief they are correct. Every time, time after time. They believe it. When they make it. To bad it's not all ways true, and it doesn't make me any less loyal, intelligent, or supportive of the law because I recognise that or I am willing to tell it back to you. We aren't parked alone in the dark beside a road where the best course is to always just shut up, take the ticket and save the discussion until we see the judge. We are in the full light of day to be judged by public opinion where you've said I belong in prison if I ever make the choice to put the kids in seat belts because two frigg'n car seats won't fit in a pick up seat to haul a load of wood and all of us a mile to grand pa's house. That would be an opinion that is NOT in line with the law you swore to up hold by the way. You said I should be in prison for putting my kids in the rumble seat for a spin around town in the put put, (the modle A I had when they were little). An expirience we all enjoyed for years with NO INTERFERENCE FROM ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT IN RUSH COUNTY OR JOHNSON COUNTY. You would put me in prison for making that personal decision as a parent of my own children that involves no one but you arrogant busy bodies who think they should have the right to tell me what is better for my kids than me. Because as you say when you went way beyond the law you swore to uphold because you have so much more EXPIRIENCE and knowledge than an idiot like me. Tell me, who would be raising those children and paying the bills while I'm in prison for your high and mighty decisions concerning my parenting? Did you give any thought to that? Get off your high horse before you start splitting up familys and imprisoning parents for stuff that is in reality NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS because when it pops up in front of a parent, they think of it immediately. I did. Those are the kind of stupid situations you set up when you want to start passing a pack of do gooder laws for EVERYBODY because you think you are all knowing and need to save everyone from them selves. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and mind your own business. When it comes to my kids, shake your head all you want but it's best to mind your own business. When it comes to making it law, I'll oppose at every opportunity anything that gives you or anyone else the powere to do anything else, and I'll ignore it if it passes any way.
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