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Post by medic22 on Mar 28, 2020 11:41:35 GMT -5
I`m just glad it`s official, that I can use my .30-06 on private land for deer hunting, permanently now. If it gets expanded to public properties at some point, even better. I'm going to try and get back at this as.other obligations slow down. I wont be offended if others attempt it as well.
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 5:47:00 GMT -5
So many have stated IN is confusing deer wise with regulations and license structures, just curious as to how specifically?
Elaboration would be appreciated.
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Post by firstwd on Mar 30, 2020 7:51:58 GMT -5
So many have stated IN is confusing deer wise with regulations and license structures, just curious as to how specifically? Elaboration would be appreciated. Look at them from a brand new hunter or an out of state hunter. The totality of the regulations read like stereo instructions. We need to scrap the entire book and start over. The biggest issue I see is we keep changing something that was written 50+ years ago. If we eliminated the original laws on the books and rewrote them to fit modern technology and terminology everybody would have a much easier grasp on exactly what they say.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Mar 30, 2020 9:35:39 GMT -5
So many have stated IN is confusing deer wise with regulations and license structures, just curious as to how specifically? Elaboration would be appreciated. Say a new hunter walks into Wal-Mart to buy a deer license: "OK sir/mam, will it be..." -Archery license -Crossbow license -Firearms license -Muzzleloader license -Bonus Antlerless license -Reduction Zone license -Bundle license -Military Refuge license -Youth license -Apprentice license -Do you have a lifetime license? -Do you qualify for a landowner license?
Customer has no idea, so they pick up a regulation book. They find out that not only do they have to figure out what license they need, they must determine if that license is valid on public and/or private land, what sex of deer they can take and in what season they can take that sex of deer with that license, what counties their license can be used in, how many of each type of license they can buy and use depending on where they hunt, etc.
Then they look at the weapons regulations and try to decipher where and when their hand-me-down .30-30 can be used to hunt with. So I can't use my grandpa's old Winchester in the Hoosier National Forest, but I can use a pistol in .300 Win-Mag or an AR-15 in .450 Bushmaster there? Oh, and by the way, make sure you don't throw the box of .44 Magnum rounds for your handi-rifle in your backpack, if you have more than 10 rounds you are breaking the law. But wait, I guess I can take any rifle I want with any number of rounds onto public land on opening day of firearms season, as long as I only shoot at coyotes with it and not deer?
Then they look at bag limits and try to reconcile that with the all of the different license types. Why does the bonus antlerless map say there is a bag limit of four antlerless in that county, but you can actually kill more than four if you buy the right combination of deer license types?
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Indiana (both our DNR/NRC and now the legislative branch) take something that should be so simple (and is in most other states) and twist and turn it into something that is simply overwhelming to a new hunter. I have seen the glazed over look in the eyes of so many people that I've mentored or attempted to introduce to hunting. It really should be as easy as buying a buck tag or a doe tag and following the season dates published in the regulations. You can vary the price for your buck or doe tag for certain categories of people, such as youth. For counties where you want an increase in doe harvest, just allow people to buy more doe tags in those counties. You don't need to create an entirely new license type for every possible scenario.
MY OPINION is that Indiana has gotten too cute in trying to maximize license sales by making you buy a license for each weapon, season, etc. The bundle license was a step in the right direction towards simplification, but folks are still forced to buy essentially 3 licenses if they want to be able to hunt for one buck throughout the entire deer season. For me it is not a money issue at all, I would willingly pay more for my license for a more cohesive and coherent set of hunting regulations.
Will the silliness and complexity stop someone who is serious about hunting from going out and participating? I don't think so, but I do know for a fact that the rules and regulations that we've established are an unnecessary hurdle that could be improved upon greatly.
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 10:04:26 GMT -5
So many have stated IN is confusing deer wise with regulations and license structures, just curious as to how specifically? Elaboration would be appreciated. Look at them from a brand new hunter or an out of state hunter. The totality of the regulations read like stereo instructions. We need to scrap the entire book and start over. The biggest issue I see is we keep changing something that was written 50+ years ago. If we eliminated the original laws on the books and rewrote them to fit modern technology and terminology everybody would have a much easier grasp on exactly what they say. Not asking for over view, specific issues folks feel are confusing.
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Post by deadeer on Mar 30, 2020 10:05:28 GMT -5
So many have stated IN is confusing deer wise with regulations and license structures, just curious as to how specifically? Elaboration would be appreciated. Say a new hunter walks into Wal-Mart to buy a deer license: "OK sir/mam, will it be..." -Archery license -Crossbow license -Firearms license -Muzzleloader license -Bonus Antlerless license -Reduction Zone license -Bundle license -Military Refuge license -Youth license -Apprentice license -Do you have a lifetime license? -Do you qualify for a landowner license?
Customer has no idea, so they pick up a regulation book. They find out that not only do they have to figure out what license they need, they must determine if that license is valid on public and/or private land, what sex of deer they can take and in what season they can take that sex of deer with that license, what counties their license can be used in, how many of each type of license they can buy and use depending on where they hunt, etc.
Then they look at the weapons regulations and try to decipher where and when their hand-me-down .30-30 can be used to hunt with. So I can't use my grandpa's old Winchester in the Hoosier National Forest, but I can use a pistol in .300 Win-Mag or an AR-15 in .450 Bushmaster there? Oh, and by the way, make sure you don't throw the box of .44 Magnum rounds for your handi-rifle in your backpack, if you have more than 10 rounds you are breaking the law. But wait, I guess I can take any rifle I want with any number of rounds onto public land on opening day of firearms season, as long as I only shoot at coyotes with it and not deer?
Then they look at bag limits and try to reconcile that with the all of the different license types. Why does the bonus antlerless map say there is a bag limit of four antlerless in that county, but you can actually kill more than four if you buy the right combination of deer license types?
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Indiana (both our DNR/NRC and now the legislative branch) take something that should be so simple (and is in most other states) and twist and turn it into something that is simply overwhelming to a new hunter. I have seen the glazed over look in the eyes of so many people that I've mentored or attempted to introduce to hunting. It really should be as easy as buying a buck tag or a doe tag and following the season dates published in the regulations. You can vary the price for your buck or doe tag for certain categories of people, such as youth. For counties where you want an increase in doe harvest, just allow people to buy more doe tags in those counties. You don't need to create an entirely new license type for every possible scenario.
MY OPINION is that Indiana has gotten too cute in trying to maximize license sales by making you buy a license for each weapon, season, etc. The bundle license was a step in the right direction towards simplification, but folks are still forced to buy essentially 3 licenses if they want to be able to hunt for one buck throughout the entire deer season. For me it is not a money issue at all, I would willingly pay more for my license for a more cohesive and coherent set of hunting regulations.
Will the silliness and complexity stop someone who is serious about hunting from going out and participating? I don't think so, but I do know for a fact that the rules and regulations that we've established are an unnecessary hurdle that could be improved upon greatly.
To add to the Walmart experience, dont forget that the clerk has NO idea what their talking about. Have heard many times that you need a "hunting licence" before you can buy a deer licence. Or you have to buy a "firearms license" before a bonus licence.
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 10:42:08 GMT -5
First thank you for the in depth response. I am struggling with a few things, I'll group thoughts together from your post: Say a new hunter walks into Wal-Mart to buy a deer license: "OK sir/mam, will it be..." -Archery license -Crossbow license -Firearms license -Muzzleloader license -Bonus Antlerless license -Reduction Zone license -Bundle license -Military Refuge license -Youth license -Apprentice license -Do you have a lifetime license? -Do you qualify for a landowner license?
Customer has no idea, so they pick up a regulation book. They find out that not only do they have to figure out what license they need, they must determine if that license is valid on public and/or private land, what sex of deer they can take and in what season they can take that sex of deer with that license, what counties their license can be used in, how many of each type of license they can buy and use depending on where they hunt, etc. The situation outlined, we can safely remove the lifetime license issue from it, someone with it isn't looking for one...except in extremely odd or unique reasons, of which they already should/would be aware of. I'd argue the lifetime guys know more than the Walmart cashier ringing them up too LOL. So I'm assuming you believe we have too many license types, which ones should be eliminated? Out of the ones listed I only see the crossbow one as redundant really. Ever since they were adopted and allowed in archery season the same as all vertical archery equipment it is redundant and in my opinion ignorant to have another license for them unless I'm missing a reason I've never heard as to why it MUST exist. If there is a law which makes it HAVE to exist, I'd argue that law needs amendment. However, all the others I just don't see it? Nearly EVERY state has weapon specific licenses so not sure I see that...now granted them throwing the bundle out as an option "for the most part" eliminates the common hunters worry for anything specific and makes it basically to where they can grab whatever weapon they want, so long as legally an option at the time of their hunt and location of their hunt (weapon discussion later). The apprentice and youth licenses...any specific issue with them, or were you merely listing to illustrate the multitude of options present? Then they look at the weapons regulations and try to decipher where and when their hand-me-down .30-30 can be used to hunt with. So I can't use my grandpa's old Winchester in the Hoosier National Forest, but I can use a pistol in .300 Win-Mag or an AR-15 in .450 Bushmaster there? Oh, and by the way, make sure you don't throw the box of .44 Magnum rounds for your handi-rifle in your backpack, if you have more than 10 rounds you are breaking the law. But wait, I guess I can take any rifle I want with any number of rounds onto public land on opening day of firearms season, as long as I only shoot at coyotes with it and not deer? The public legal vs private legal is just ignorant and no logical defense of it being different exists IMO. I'm 100% with you there. Then they look at bag limits and try to reconcile that with the all of the different license types. Why does the bonus antlerless map say there is a bag limit of four antlerless in that county, but you can actually kill more than four if you buy the right combination of deer license types? Sorry, this is something again no one IMO cannot understand if they merely read the regulation book and it becomes clear this is an amount allowed over the normal season bag limits. This "spigot" is a great tool (like or dislike how handled) a deer biologist can use where necessary either direction. I don't get the issue here personally as it is rather easy to understand...and honestly doesn't impact hardly any common "weekend" hunter (term NOT used derogatory but for folks that are outside the normal know of things due to only hunting a few times a year). Indiana (both our DNR/NRC and now the legislative branch) take something that should be so simple (and is in most other states) and twist and turn it into something that is simply overwhelming to a new hunter. I have seen the glazed over look in the eyes of so many people that I've mentored or attempted to introduce to hunting. It really should be as easy as buying a buck tag or a doe tag and following the season dates published in the regulations. You can vary the price for your buck or doe tag for certain categories of people, such as youth. For counties where you want an increase in doe harvest, just allow people to buy more doe tags in those counties. You don't need to create an entirely new license type for every possible scenario. However under that system you would still need a cap of "extra doe licenses" hence the existence of bonus antlerless maps and such. I've heard many state the whole just buy a tag and not a season license fee...however the majority of states simply don't operate this way, BUT I also concede merely not doing something because most don't is not a good reason. I'd be curious to hear from directors of various states as to why this isn't utilized more, because I am with you a system where weapon specific licenses are not a thing does simplify the process even most "uninformed" folks could follow. MY OPINION is that Indiana has gotten too cute in trying to maximize license sales by making you buy a license for each weapon, season, etc. The bundle license was a step in the right direction towards simplification, but folks are still forced to buy essentially 3 licenses if they want to be able to hunt for one buck throughout the entire deer season. For me it is not a money issue at all, I would willingly pay more for my license for a more cohesive and coherent set of hunting regulations. Will the silliness and complexity stop someone who is serious about hunting from going out and participating? I don't think so, but I do know for a fact that the rules and regulations that we've established are an unnecessary hurdle that could be improved upon greatly. So part of your frustration is that someone whom ONLY buck hunts is not served in a simplistic manner? I'm not a fan of regulation decisions driven solely by this, but let's say we went to a buck only tag for all seasons...this most likely would be AT minimum a shadowing of the current cost to do so which is $73 (Archery + Firearms + Muzzleloader)...and with the present cost of Bundle being $65 (includes every season and 3 deer tags (1 antlered or 0 antlered) ). So truly the only thing someone gains in the situation outlined is instead of buying the Bundle presently for one purchase on the year, they would buy one buck tag for the year. I do like the direction of the thought however! Could potentially look something like: Indiana Buck Tag: $75 (Legal for use in Archery, Firearms & Muzzleloader seasons) Indiana Doe Tag(s): $20 (Legal for use in Archery, Firearms, Muzzleloader) Not to exceed the number of does allowed per the new "Doe Limit Map" which replaces the "Bonus Quota Map" Indiana Bundle License: $65 (Legal for same thing as the current one is) Under that Joe (deer biologist) could still specifically monitor and control doe harvests to an extent in every county as we attempt to do now, yet eliminate some of the confusion you outlined. I can truly see the merits of such a system, if for no other reason than simplifying it.
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Post by jjas on Mar 30, 2020 11:58:31 GMT -5
tynimiller
What I would like to see is an Indiana deer license for ALL seasons/equipment that has 1 antlered/1 antlerless (or two antlerless) for $50.00. Additional antlerless tags would be $25.00 each and those would be for any season.
Seems to me that would solve a bit of the confusion and save the average hunter $10.00 per year.
Non-resident deer licenses would be the same, but they would cost $500 and no additional doe tags would be available.
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 12:02:24 GMT -5
tynimiller What I would like to see is an Indiana deer license for ALL seasons/equipment that has 1 antlered/1 antlerless (or two antlerless) for $50.00. Additional antlerless tags would be $25.00 each and those would be for any season. Seems to me that would solve a bit of the confusion and save the average hunter $10.00 per year. I kept the bundle as 3 deer, for simplicity sake of it being so now. The only hunters hurt by the way I shared is that group that only wants two deer.....HOWEVER, arguably the bundle is still a huge cost savings to buying the doe and the buck tag in the set up I posed.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Mar 30, 2020 12:04:20 GMT -5
tynimillerBy no means am I familiar with all 50 states deer license structure, but of the dozen or so states that I do hunt and/or apply in, I have not found this to be the case. Most have a deer tag, buck and/or doe, and some charge an extra fee to hunt archery season.. they do not issue a different license. Again, some do, most don't (of the states I hunt). I don't think they're necessary. Just apply the same rules for an apprentice, but under a normal deer license. The youth license is kind of a different animal since it is all inclusive. You can use the same spigot and put out a county map that shows how many doe tags can be used, without creating a new license type. Then, you could actually put the true bag limit on each county, rather than a factor to plug into an equation. {X(bundle)+Y(bonus antlerless)=True Bag Limit} It would be interesting to know how many sell their own residents separate licenses for each weapon type, because as I stated that's not what I've seen. I'd wager that the majority do not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I don't have any personal axe to grind here against the DNR as some do. I do think that I have a fair bit of experience navigating hunting regulations compared to the average Joe though. I think the most telling post in this thread is from firstwd, having taught how many hundreds or thousands of students in hunter-education, state that the rules are needlessly complex.
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 12:20:49 GMT -5
As I stated I don't necessarily disagree, however I think someone who spends some real time (10-20 minutes) reading the regulations will most likely have an understanding. BUT, that is the majority of folks that actually take the time to do so...I concur things could grossly be simplified like in the ending of my post. It would eliminate weapon specific licenses and bonus quota maps (over to just doe harvest maps).
In essence that could keep "most" hunters typical nature of harvesting the same, but without so many options. I still for the life of me fail to understand why we have a crossbow license....that before anything else I'd think could be incredibly easy to do away with.
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Post by jjas on Mar 30, 2020 14:19:58 GMT -5
As I stated I don't necessarily disagree, however I think someone who spends some real time (10-20 minutes) reading the regulations will most likely have an understanding. BUT, that is the majority of folks that actually take the time to do so...I concur things could grossly be simplified like in the ending of my post. It would eliminate weapon specific licenses and bonus quota maps (over to just doe harvest maps). In essence that could keep "most" hunters typical nature of harvesting the same, but without so many options. I still for the life of me fail to understand why we have a crossbow license....that before anything else I'd think could be incredibly easy to do away with. If I'm not mistaken, when all of this was being debated the crossbow license was added to appease the vertical bowhunters.
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 14:22:07 GMT -5
As I stated I don't necessarily disagree, however I think someone who spends some real time (10-20 minutes) reading the regulations will most likely have an understanding. BUT, that is the majority of folks that actually take the time to do so...I concur things could grossly be simplified like in the ending of my post. It would eliminate weapon specific licenses and bonus quota maps (over to just doe harvest maps). In essence that could keep "most" hunters typical nature of harvesting the same, but without so many options. I still for the life of me fail to understand why we have a crossbow license....that before anything else I'd think could be incredibly easy to do away with. If I'm not mistaken, when all of this was being debated the crossbow license was added to appease the vertical bowhunters. That was something I remember as well, but for the life of mean I don't understand the logic of it. Was it when they actually had a separate season, post firearms?
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Post by firstwd on Mar 30, 2020 14:26:13 GMT -5
Take a few minutes and check out the deer license structure in Kentucky. They have a bonus antlerless system like we do, but their overall deer license structure is far simpler. Personally, theirs or something very similar, is what I would like to see here.
Trust me, I have no issues navigating our system but some of the questions I get from adult seasoned hunters in my classes makes my faith in humanity wane.
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Post by firstwd on Mar 30, 2020 14:28:46 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, when all of this was being debated the crossbow license was added to appease the vertical bowhunters. That was something I remember as well, but for the life of mean I don't understand the logic of it. Was it when they actually had a separate season, post firearms? They never had a separate season. Crossbows were allowed under an archery license during late archery season. Some leadership of a couple deer groups fought to get a crossbow license basically to make it more difficult for people to hunt with both vertical bows and crossbows.
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Post by jjas on Mar 30, 2020 14:30:36 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, when all of this was being debated the crossbow license was added to appease the vertical bowhunters. That was something I remember as well, but for the life of mean I don't understand the logic of it. Was it when they actually had a separate season, post firearms? I could be wrong, but the way I remember it, the separate license was done to appease the vertical bowhunters. Perhaps it was done so under the guise of having a way to track who was using what during the season, but if that's the case (and I'm not sure it was), that's a non-issue based on how the check in system works now.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Mar 30, 2020 14:42:00 GMT -5
Here's how simple it could be.. Kansas's regulations for residents hunting white-tailed deer:
I'm not saying we should be exactly like Kansas, or any other state, but this is how most of the states I'm familiar with do it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 30, 2020 14:55:38 GMT -5
That was something I remember as well, but for the life of mean I don't understand the logic of it. Was it when they actually had a separate season, post firearms? I could be wrong, but the way I remember it, the separate license was done to appease the vertical bowhunters. Perhaps it was done so under the guise of having a way to track who was using what during the season, but if that's the case (and I'm not sure it was), that's a non-issue based on how the check in system works now. That’s pretty well it. The organized hunting groups thought that only the legislaure could ok a hunting license. So they asked for a separate license and then consider a season in addition to the “late archery” season. It was a pure stalling tactic in hopes that there would never be a license, nor crossbows in archery season. Their Excuse was : 1) Know how many hunters used crossbows. Since Indiana has LTL holders, landowners/tenants and now the bundle there is no way of knowing who uses a crossbow or any other hunting tool until they check in a deer. 2) A need to know how many deer are killed with crossbow. A license doesn’t do that. We need to declare the hunting tool no matter what we use. Crossbowers used an archery license for handicapped individuals since the 1980s and by anyone using a crossbow in the late season. My last email to the DNR and NRC on crossbow inclusion was to give the organized hunting groups what they wanted, a crossbow license but put the crossbow season in with the archery season. I fought that battle from 2001 until we could ALL use a crossbow in 2012.. That is what the DNR really wanted and that is what they did in the “Deer Proposal #2”. Everytime I see a picture of a youngster with a deer and a crossbow I say to myself,” Yeah, it was worth it”!
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Post by tynimiller on Mar 30, 2020 15:15:18 GMT -5
Appreciate the clarity...hopefully the fact it is not needed any longer they dispose of it...but doubt they would only do that, and could be the reason to open up the whole process for simplicity sake.
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Post by omegahunter on Mar 30, 2020 15:30:53 GMT -5
As far as the rifle rules and the license and bag limits go, it is not that hard to follow if you just read it. If someone has no desire to attempt to learn the regs, I have no desire to hunt the same area they do because if they don't care to learn, they just won't care at all about anything else either.
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