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Post by firstwd on Jan 26, 2014 20:52:20 GMT -5
I see both sides of this one.... Food plots, small water holes, mineral sites, bait piles...All are placed in locations with the expressed hope that these things should/would/could attract and/or hold deer. Then......we put cameras over them to monitor the areas 24/7/365.....just to see what deer come through and what day/time they are doing so....... Where do we draw the line? Currently I see the line as a bipolar stream and it really needs to be canal. |
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Post by bullwinkle on Jan 27, 2014 0:07:39 GMT -5
Baiting is bad in that it congregates animals to one area and that can spread diseases both to targeted and non targeted game. Baiting could actually introduce a disease to an area. When states got CWD or TB and tried to ban baiting they face opposition from both hunters and those who supplied the bait. How can you tell the public you should not feed wildlife at parks and then say it is OK for hunters. It's not good for the deer/wildlife and the image of hunting. Hunting should be challenging or it's not hunting it's killing.
People really need to think about unintended consequences. I am shocked that the DNR is considering it. It is so contrary to what past biologist for our state preached. Fish and Wildlife really has slipped in the quality of people compared to those who once managed the resource.
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Post by jjas on Jan 27, 2014 0:49:30 GMT -5
Bullwinkle
I don't disagree but couldn't the same thing be said about mineral sites, corn piles after the season and small water holes?
Again....where do we draw the line?
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Post by firstwd on Jan 27, 2014 5:58:49 GMT -5
Bullwinkle I don't disagree but couldn't the same thing be said about mineral sites, corn piles after the season and small water holes? Again....where do we draw the line? The same thing and more could be said about the exotic "specially designed for deer" food plot seed blends. Think about this, if an overdose of vitamins and minerals is harmful to humans what exactly is it doing to the deer? |
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Post by jjas on Jan 27, 2014 12:41:45 GMT -5
Bullwinkle I don't disagree but couldn't the same thing be said about mineral sites, corn piles after the season and small water holes? Again....where do we draw the line? The same thing and more could be said about the exotic "specially designed for deer" food plot seed blends. Think about this, if an overdose of vitamins and minerals is harmful to humans what exactly is it doing to the deer? I've wondered about that very thing myself over the years.......Every time I see pics of a giant 180" deer killed in states that historically have smaller deer and smaller racks in the past (like say...Louisiana or Georgia), I wonder if that is the result of letting a deer age along with good nutrition or is that the result of letting the deer age and feeding him an endless supply of minerals and genetically altered foods..... And if the latter is the case, one has to wonder if what we think is good for the deer and is helping.....may actually be hurting them in the long run....... |
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 27, 2014 15:14:47 GMT -5
Big difference IMO of someone who put's out acre's of food plot's and a guy who pour's out a bucket of salt or attractant on the ground and hunt's over it. Or a guy that hunt's near a apple tree, persimmon tree or even a white oak tree. ( Apples and Orange's comparison's ). (Hunting food source's is a part of hunting.) The law need's to be simplified and eliminate gray area's and then enforced.
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Post by firstwd on Jan 27, 2014 18:09:58 GMT -5
Hunting food sources is a part of hunting, but are exotic food sources a natural part of hunting?
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Post by bullwinkle on Jan 28, 2014 11:54:46 GMT -5
Bullwinkle I don't disagree but couldn't the same thing be said about mineral sites, corn piles after the season and small water holes? Again....where do we draw the line? Let's disregard the ethical implications and let's just look at it from a biological point. Do you really believe mineral blocks are going to make a difference in making a whitetail deer's antlers that much bigger? All that stuff is sold for the hunters not the deer. It like a male enhancement pill. If you put out corn piles after the season you could be bringing in predators too. It appears many on this site believes coyotes are hurting deer numbers. You put out food piles and draw many animals in others are going to find them too. You are also going to have squirrels rabbits and raccoons and the like using the piles too. Again they become vulnerable to prey as well as spreading diseases like rabies an distemper and parasites. WE are in an age where commercialism is convincing sportsmen that man needs to insert itself to improve what god has given us. Our deer herd was non existent at one time, after the first wave of commercialism wiped it out. Now that the deer have returned after reintroduction it has done very well on it's own. Now man is once again trying to find ways to exploit it with gadgets and gizmo's. food plots, baits and licks and other consumables and then the ultimate growing genetically enhanced deer for the man short on skill but long on cash. If one really believes that man can substitute consumables for habitat the now until next year is when you should invest your money. Don't wait until Walmart and others start selling it when hunting season rolls around. IT is zero out there now. The deer will find a way to survive without us and I believe it will be do to habitat not feeding them. Roosevelt was clear in 1887 about where the problem of wildlife destruction lay. It was not, in his view, the sport hunter who wiped out game. He made this point in later years: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide, or for the feathers, or for the meat, or to sell antlers and other trophies; the market men who put game in cold storage; and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game." |
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Post by firstwd on Jan 28, 2014 12:17:11 GMT -5
Bullwinkle I don't disagree but couldn't the same thing be said about mineral sites, corn piles after the season and small water holes? Again....where do we draw the line? Let's disregard the ethical implications and let's just look at it from a biological point. Do you really believe mineral blocks are going to make a difference in making a whitetail deer's antlers that much bigger? All that stuff is sold for the hunters not the deer. It like a male enhancement pill. If you put out corn piles after the season you could be bringing in predators too. It appears many on this site believes coyotes are hurting deer numbers. You put out food piles and draw many animals in others are going to find them too. You are also going to have squirrels rabbits and raccoons and the like using the piles too. Again they become vulnerable to prey as well as spreading diseases like rabies an distemper and parasites. WE are in an age where commercialism is convincing sportsmen that man needs to insert itself to improve what god has given us. Our deer herd was non existent at one time, after the first wave of commercialism wiped it out. Now that the deer have returned after reintroduction it has done very well on it's own. Now man is once again trying to find ways to exploit it with gadgets and gizmo's. food plots, baits and licks and other consumables and then the ultimate growing genetically enhanced deer for the man short on skill but long on cash. If one really believes that man can substitute consumables for habitat then now until next year is when you should invest your money. Don't wait until Walmart and others start selling it when hunting season rolls around. I know some do but habitat is the key with wildlife. They will find food. IT is zero out there now. The deer will find a way to survive without us and I believe it will be do to habitat not feeding them. Roosevelt was clear in 1887 about where the problem of wildlife destruction lay. It was not, in his view, the sport hunter who wiped out game. He made this point in later years: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide, or for the feathers, or for the meat, or to sell antlers and other trophies; the market men who put game in cold storage; and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game." Does this mean you are on the side of banning commercial food plots? Restoring natural habitat and food sources I completely agree with and wholeheartedly agree with the practice. In my view, the commercially sold and nutritionally enhanced food plot mixes are not different than the mineral mixes sold on the shelves right next to them. |
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Post by bullwinkle on Jan 28, 2014 13:04:06 GMT -5
Let's disregard the ethical implications and let's just look at it from a biological point. Do you really believe mineral blocks are going to make a difference in making a whitetail deer's antlers that much bigger? All that stuff is sold for the hunters not the deer. It like a male enhancement pill. If you put out corn piles after the season you could be bringing in predators too. It appears many on this site believes coyotes are hurting deer numbers. You put out food piles and draw many animals in others are going to find them too. You are also going to have squirrels rabbits and raccoons and the like using the piles too. Again they become vulnerable to prey as well as spreading diseases like rabies an distemper and parasites. WE are in an age where commercialism is convincing sportsmen that man needs to insert itself to improve what god has given us. Our deer herd was non existent at one time, after the first wave of commercialism wiped it out. Now that the deer have returned after reintroduction it has done very well on it's own. Now man is once again trying to find ways to exploit it with gadgets and gizmo's. food plots, baits and licks and other consumables and then the ultimate growing genetically enhanced deer for the man short on skill but long on cash. If one really believes that man can substitute consumables for habitat then now until next year is when you should invest your money. Don't wait until Walmart and others start selling it when hunting season rolls around. I know some do but habitat is the key with wildlife. They will find food. IT is zero out there now. The deer will find a way to survive without us and I believe it will be do to habitat not feeding them. Roosevelt was clear in 1887 about where the problem of wildlife destruction lay. It was not, in his view, the sport hunter who wiped out game. He made this point in later years: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide, or for the feathers, or for the meat, or to sell antlers and other trophies; the market men who put game in cold storage; and the rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game." Does this mean you are on the side of banning commercial food plots? Restoring natural habitat and food sources I completely agree with and wholeheartedly agree with the practice. In my view, the commercially sold and nutritionally enhanced food plot mixes are not different than the mineral mixes sold on the shelves right next to them. Not something I would work to ban. I don't believe they are needed to help the deer to survive. I believe they are done to hold deer in the area or done to draw deer to the area, perhaps for shooting purpose. Do they benefit wildlife? Maybe but maybe they could harm it. It would have to be judge by the size and location. I could see a large enough one out in the open away from edge that would give animals the ability to react to predators. If it was a small one in vegetation that would conceal predators or one that animals were so concentrated that they could digest other animals saliva or feces, That is not good. Think how disease is spread. When you concentrate animals you increase the odds of contamination. At least that is what experts are saying and have said for some time. It's why kids go to school and get sick from other kids that are sick too. There is a reason why farmed animals are pumped full of drugs when they are confined or in a feed lot. There is concern that we humans are not help by ingesting to much of those drugs from farmed animals |
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Post by bullwinkle on Jan 28, 2014 13:13:02 GMT -5
Sportsmen need to start thinking about the big picture. Put the resource and wildlife first and things will take care of itself. If they do that much of what they disagree on goes away. That is not what is happening. Sportsmen are so focused on their situation, they can't see what is good for the future generations and even how things my come back to bite them in their lifetime.
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 28, 2014 13:45:33 GMT -5
Any animal can survive without human help. Using good QDM practice's can and will help with your local deer herd's health as well as add a few inches of bone to some buck's antler growth on occassion. Not sure what (exotic plot's) you are referring too?? I would agree that most seed blends marketed to hunter's are in most case's no better then what a hunter can go to a local seed store and purchase for a much lower price. I try to use native crop's to my area and my plot's consist of Alfalfa, white clover, oat's, wheat,chicory,corn, soybean's and some turnip's. My personal experience is that the buck's prefer the alfalfa/clover in the summer and the corn in the winter. I noticed a big jump in buck's on my property 5 year's ago when I added the alfalfa to the mix. Currently have approx. 12 acre's of field's/plot's designated to my local deer herd. In addition all the other wildlife on my 150 acre's benefit as well. Since I moved here 11 year's ago it is like night and day. Not only do I see more deer, but bigger deer both in body weight and antler size as well as turkey's galore and small game spices are coming out of the woodwork. Never saw a quail on the property first 3 year's and now I have several covey's. I let some old timer's from Muncie turkey hunt as they have been coming to the property for some 25 year's. They comment every year how the hunting just seems to be better and better. Property was timbered 3 year's ago and I have added 12 apple tree's and have ordered a dozen persimmon tree's to be planted this spring. Every year I try to add something new for the deer and the wildlife in general. I keep 3 mineral lick's active from December untill Sept. (It's a year round job.) But I enjoy the outdoor's and will continue to manage the farm as long as I can get around. So again IMO what I do vs's a guy who dump's a bag of attractant on the ground to hunt over is something totally different.
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Post by firstwd on Jan 28, 2014 18:25:29 GMT -5
Any animal can survive without human help. Using good QDM practice's can and will help with your local deer herd's health as well as add a few inches of bone to some buck's antler growth on occassion. Not sure what (exotic plot's) you are referring too?? I would agree that most seed blends marketed to hunter's are in most case's no better then what a hunter can go to a local seed store and purchase for a much lower price. I try to use native crop's to my area and my plot's consist of Alfalfa, white clover, oat's, wheat,chicory,corn, soybean's and some turnip's. My personal experience is that the buck's prefer the alfalfa/clover in the summer and the corn in the winter. I noticed a big jump in buck's on my property 5 year's ago when I added the alfalfa to the mix. Currently have approx. 12 acre's of field's/plot's designated to my local deer herd. In addition all the other wildlife on my 150 acre's benefit as well. Since I moved here 11 year's ago it is like night and day. Not only do I see more deer, but bigger deer both in body weight and antler size as well as turkey's galore and small game spices are coming out of the woodwork. Never saw a quail on the property first 3 year's and now I have several covey's. I let some old timer's from Muncie turkey hunt as they have been coming to the property for some 25 year's. They comment every year how the hunting just seems to be better and better. Property was timbered 3 year's ago and I have added 12 apple tree's and have ordered a dozen persimmon tree's to be planted this spring. Every year I try to add something new for the deer and the wildlife in general. I keep 3 mineral lick's active from December untill Sept. (It's a year round job.) But I enjoy the outdoor's and will continue to manage the farm as long as I can get around. So again IMO what I do vs's a guy who dump's a bag of attractant on the ground to hunt over is something totally different. Just don't let anyone waterfowl hunt on your property because they will be breaking Federal baiting laws. |
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Post by MuzzleLoader on Jan 28, 2014 18:34:36 GMT -5
Any animal can survive without human help. Using good QDM practice's can and will help with your local deer herd's health as well as add a few inches of bone to some buck's antler growth on occassion. Not sure what (exotic plot's) you are referring too?? I would agree that most seed blends marketed to hunter's are in most case's no better then what a hunter can go to a local seed store and purchase for a much lower price. I try to use native crop's to my area and my plot's consist of Alfalfa, white clover, oat's, wheat,chicory,corn, soybean's and some turnip's. My personal experience is that the buck's prefer the alfalfa/clover in the summer and the corn in the winter. I noticed a big jump in buck's on my property 5 year's ago when I added the alfalfa to the mix. Currently have approx. 12 acre's of field's/plot's designated to my local deer herd. In addition all the other wildlife on my 150 acre's benefit as well. Since I moved here 11 year's ago it is like night and day. Not only do I see more deer, but bigger deer both in body weight and antler size as well as turkey's galore and small game spices are coming out of the woodwork. Never saw a quail on the property first 3 year's and now I have several covey's. I let some old timer's from Muncie turkey hunt as they have been coming to the property for some 25 year's. They comment every year how the hunting just seems to be better and better. Property was timbered 3 year's ago and I have added 12 apple tree's and have ordered a dozen persimmon tree's to be planted this spring. Every year I try to add something new for the deer and the wildlife in general. I keep 3 mineral lick's active from December untill Sept. (It's a year round job.) But I enjoy the outdoor's and will continue to manage the farm as long as I can get around. So again IMO what I do vs's a guy who dump's a bag of attractant on the ground to hunt over is something totally different. I am just curious, why is it any difference when you spread corn say using a spreader on the back of a quad over acres of fields any different than planting corn on acres of fields? |
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Post by throbak on Jan 28, 2014 18:50:20 GMT -5
am just curious, why is it any difference when you spread corn say using a spreader on the back of a quad over acres of fields any different than planting corn on acres of fields? INTENT IS THE DIFFERENCE
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 28, 2014 19:46:53 GMT -5
I recall watching a TV hunter that was hunting during a late muzzleloader season who was hunting a standing corn field ... Except the first dozen rows in front of the stand and 100 yards each way from the stand had been bush hogged. Not picked mind you.. Bush hogged.. I guess that is perfectly legal in the state they were in or they wouldn't have shown it. Yes, the deer fogged into that area and he took a rather nice buck.
Food plot or baiting?
Really, the only baiting I could go along with would be during the youth weekend.. ONLY.
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Post by MuzzleLoader on Jan 28, 2014 20:13:58 GMT -5
am just curious, why is it any difference when you spread corn say using a spreader on the back of a quad over acres of fields any different than planting corn on acres of fields? INTENT IS THE DIFFERENCE Intent of what? You intend to hunt over the corn planted field. You intend to hunt over a field with corn spread in it. What's the difference? |
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Post by throbak on Jan 28, 2014 22:22:59 GMT -5
planting corn on acres and acres the intent is to grow a crop an make a living, spreading corn behind a quad the intent is not a normal farming practice
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Post by firstwd on Jan 28, 2014 23:21:35 GMT -5
planting corn on acres and acres the intent is to grow a crop an make a living, spreading corn behind a quad the intent is not a normal farming practice Planting acres of any crop with no intention of harvesting it for sale or farm animal feed is the same intent as spreading it around a field behind an ATV. |
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Post by MuzzleLoader on Jan 29, 2014 9:27:41 GMT -5
planting corn on acres and acres the intent is to grow a crop an make a living, spreading corn behind a quad the intent is not a normal farming practice Planting acres of any crop with no intention of harvesting it for sale or farm animal feed is the same intent as spreading it around a field behind an ATV. Yep, thank you. The point I am trying to make. There is no difference. |
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