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Post by omegahunter on Jan 21, 2014 10:00:00 GMT -5
Hey now, don't bad mouth those .358 WSSM's. I have 4 of them in the family right now! You sure are right about the availability of that WSSM brass though!
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Post by drs on Jan 21, 2014 10:32:47 GMT -5
Hey now, don't bad mouth those .358 WSSM's. I have 4 of them in the family right now! You sure are right about the availability of that WSSM brass though! Not a thing at all wrong with the .358 wssm cartridge, interesting cartridge. I read on another forum that several cartridges are going to be discontinued, including the newer ones that aren't popular or weak sellers. Most likely has something to do with the shortage of ammunition in general & manufactures trying to keep up with demand on the more popular cartridges. Don't know if this would include the WSSM family of cartridges though.
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Post by omegahunter on Jan 21, 2014 10:52:14 GMT -5
Hey now, don't bad mouth those .358 WSSM's. I have 4 of them in the family right now! You sure are right about the availability of that WSSM brass though! Not a thing at all wrong with the .358 wssm cartridge, interesting cartridge. I read on another forum that several cartridges are going to be discontinued, including the newer ones that aren't popular or weak sellers. Most likely has something to do with the shortage of ammunition in general & manufactures trying to keep up with demand on the more popular cartridges. Don't know if this would include the WSSM family of cartridges though. I would bet you are right on both counts. I would figure that the "ammo shortage" will drive many cartridges into seasonal-run status and I am sure that the WSSM family will be in that pile. I sure hope the .358 Hoosier has a long life. You can bet that I would have had rifles built in the Hoosier format if we had the 1.8 regulation first just because of case availability alone!
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Post by drs on Jan 21, 2014 11:20:13 GMT -5
Not a thing at all wrong with the .358 wssm cartridge, interesting cartridge. I read on another forum that several cartridges are going to be discontinued, including the newer ones that aren't popular or weak sellers. Most likely has something to do with the shortage of ammunition in general & manufactures trying to keep up with demand on the more popular cartridges. Don't know if this would include the WSSM family of cartridges though. I would bet you are right on both counts. I would figure that the "ammo shortage" will drive many cartridges into seasonal-run status and I am sure that the WSSM family will be in that pile. I sure hope the .358 Hoosier has a long life. You can bet that I would have had rifles built in the Hoosier format if we had the 1.8 regulation first just because of case availability alone! Don't see an availability issue with obtaining brass to form the .358 Hoosier. You can form this case from .30-06 cases if needed, as it isn't difficult at all. Concerning the WSSM brass; this might become an issue, which is why I suggested anyone wanting to build a wildcat .358 caliber 1.8" cartridge would be advised to use a current common belted magnum case, as a parent, as these would be easier to obtain.
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Post by omegahunter on Jan 21, 2014 11:41:02 GMT -5
And as others have posted, you can even use some military .308 cases with slightly reduced charges if the necks are thin enough without having to ream or cut the necks.
Personal preference, but I would rather not have the magnum belt on my cases. Some cartridges are pretty and some are not. The WSSM cartridge cases won't win any beauty contests because they are so short and fat, but the results do!!
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Post by cedarthicket on Feb 21, 2014 8:23:05 GMT -5
The following includes some updated information recently sent to known suppliers of rifles, barrels, and ammunition for the .358 Hoosier:
Because of the continuing shortage of .358 Winchester brass (the original parent case of the .358 Hoosier) many owners of existing .358 Hoosier rifles and barrels are forced to use various brands of .308 Winchester commercial brass to make Hoosier cases. Some (not all) of this brass is a little too thick in the neck area to chamber in existing rifles without first outside neck turning the formed brass. In order to make it easier to use commercial .308 Winchester brass as the parent case (and not needing to neck turn the brass) in future barrels, Pacific Tool and Gauge has made a modification to the finish chamber reamer that they produce. The headspace and other dimensions stay the same, but the neck diameter is increased about .004 inches. Also, about .020 inches longer freebore is used in the latest version of the .358 Hoosier to better accommodate slightly longer overall cartridge lengths. The finish reamer Print Number is D-32464.
It has been requested that future .358 Hoosier barrels be chambered with the latest reamer dimensions. However, if or when a supplier does this is strictly up to them. The same thing holds true regarding possibly “opening up” some existing chambers to the new dimensions. As you know, the cartridge and all that goes with it are in the public domain.
There still exists the caution regarding surplus military .308 (7.62 X 51 NATO) brass. It may have thicker case walls and necks than commercial brass and a somewhat smaller powder capacity. Also, some of it may have been fired in machine guns having very “generous“ chambers (which can make initial resizing more difficult).
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Post by cedarthicket on Mar 9, 2014 20:59:56 GMT -5
I had a good time at the range yesterday testing my .358 Hoosier rifle with some Speer 180 gr HCFN (Hot Core Flat Nose) bullets. This is the first time I had tried these bullets. Usually I shoot the Hornady 180 or 200 gr SP bullets or the 180 gr Barnes TTSX FB for serious big game hunting (including deer). I fired four 3-shot groups at 50 yards and chronographed each shot. Below is a summary of results. I have also included a picture of the target. (Obviously, I used four different aiming points.) The picture includes additional loading and shooting data. No doubt a serious benchrest shooter (with good equipment and better shooting techniques), could have shot tighter groups, but these groups indicate the loads are certainly good enough for deer hunting in Indiana. No excessive pressure signs were noted. I MAY be able to add 0.5 grain more powder (H322 and Reloder 10X) with this bullet in the cases I am using (formed from Winchester brand of .358 Winchester brass). However, pending actual test results of 43.5 grains, I am regarding the 43 grain loads as maximum. Powder loading density is nearly 100 percent. A load of 43.5 grains should give slightly over 2600 feet per second muzzle velocity. CAUTION: if you are using thicker, heavier brass than mine you may find that 43 grains of powder is all that will go in your cases with this bullet seated to give an overall cartridge length of 2.48 inches. And, as a general rule I do not use compressed powder charges just to wring out a few more feet per second. 42 gr H322……...Ave Vel = 2555 ft/sec…..Group = 0.82 inches 43 gr H322……...Ave Vel = 2592 ft/sec…..Group = 0.80 inches 42 gr Rel 10X…..Ave Vel = 2543 ft/sec…..Group = 1.20 inches 43 gr Rel 10X…..Ave Vel = 2597 ft/sec…..Group = 0.60 inches All handloading and shooting involves inherent risks beyond the control of the author. Therefore, the author assumes no liability whatsoever for use of the above data or other information contained in his posts.
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Post by bart1533 on Mar 10, 2014 20:27:42 GMT -5
Looking good there ciderthicket....
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 10, 2014 21:21:01 GMT -5
I shot 3 deer with the 180 grain Hot Core and my buddy shoots the 220 grain version.
Both really flatten a whitetail and both group well for us too.
God Bless
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Post by cedarthicket on Mar 20, 2014 17:56:50 GMT -5
Following is a recently updated loading data table for the .358 Hoosier. Be sure to read ALL of the WARNING paragraph at the bottom of the table before loading ammo for this cartridge. All handloading and shooting involves inherent risks beyond the control of the author. Therefore, the author assumes no liability whatsoever for use of the data.
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Post by cedarthicket on Mar 28, 2014 11:12:50 GMT -5
I recently chronographed loads with two additional powders and Barnes 200 grain TTSX BT bullets. Sufficient data were obtained for an addendum to the loading data table posted above. Here is a summary of the new data:
Barnes 200 gr. TTSX BT (B.C. = 0.367) …. C.O.L. = 2.73 inches
Accurate 2230......41.5 gr = 2445 ft/sec…...43.5 gr = 2520 ft/sec (Maximum load) Hodgdon H322......39.5 gr = 2440 ft/sec…...41.5 gr = 2550 ft/sec (Maximum load)
[The usual warning and disclaimer notice contained in the original loading data table applies.]
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Post by steve46511 on Mar 28, 2014 11:25:37 GMT -5
I did a quick look, CT but don't see it. Remind me of the barrel length please? (EDIT......FOUND IT ...22".)
Good stuff God Bless
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Post by cedarthicket on Mar 28, 2014 11:33:42 GMT -5
Steve, the new data are not in the original table. When I get time I will need to do some modifications to font size, etc. to get it all to fit on one standard size page. I know I could use two pages, and may have to before it is all done.
The test rifle has a barrel length of 22 inches.
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Post by cedarthicket on Mar 30, 2014 12:40:10 GMT -5
I also posted on another forum my recently chronographed data with the Barnes 200 gr TTSX BT bullets. On that forum I received the following questions: “Do you think that is fast enough to get the 200gr TTSX to open up reliably and would you recommend sticking with the (still long for caliber) 180gr TTSX or the 200gr Accubond?”My response may also be of interest to fellow HI members. It is: Good questions. First, I think it would be interesting to look at results of some lab tests run by Barnes on their TTSX bullets. See link to their web site: www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/lab-tests/Check especially the series of photos showing the results of testing a 7mm WSM with the Barnes 7mm 150 gr TTSX bullet in bone-gelatin at the simulated 1000 yard velocity of 1707 ft/sec. Also, check the photos showing the results of testing a 300 Weatherby Magnum with the Barnes .308 168 gr TTSX bullet in bone-gelatin at the simulated 1000 yard velocity of 1850 ft/sec. From the Barnes tests, plus one field experience of A. J. Brown in South Africa, one could reach a conclusion that an impact velocity for a Barnes TSX or TTSX bullet of about 1700 ft/sec or greater should give effective bullet expansion for taking deer-size game animals. Have you heard of, or read about, a minimum velocity of 1700 ft/sec (or another velocity) quoted as a “rule of thumb” for reliable expansion of Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets? In 2012 A.J. used his .358 Hoosier rifle to take a blesbok (deer or antelope-size animal) at 280 yards using a Barnes 200 gr TSX FB (flat base) bullet. Assuming a muzzle velocity of 2500 ft/sec, a ballistic coefficient (BC) of 0.284, and “standard” environmental conditions with the basic program, the online Hornady external ballistics calculator shows a bullet velocity of 1740 ft/sec at 275 yards. He recovered the expanded bullet under the skin on the far side of the animal. Although the bullet’s 4 petals opened up, they had not “peeled back” quite as much as shown in typical Barnes ads. It has been a while since I saw the bullet. As I recall its expanded diameter was probably around 0.5 to 0.6 inches, which percentage wise may not have been quite as much as shown by the Barnes bone-gelatin tests of their 7mm and .308 TTSX bullets. However, the expanded diameter of A. J. Brown’s bullet was still enough to cleanly take the blesbok. www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculatorThe 200 grain TSX bullet that A. J. used did not have the pointed plastic tip and it did not have the boat tail of the 200 grain bullet that I used in the recent chronographing session. His bullet has a BC of 0.284 while the 200 gr TTSX BT (boat tail) bullet I used has a BC of 0.367. Inserting this BC in the Hornady Ballistics Calculator, with all other variables unchanged, shows a remaining velocity of 1897 ft/sec at 275 yards. This is 157 ft/sec faster at 275 yards than the non-tipped, flat base bullet of the same weight. (By the way, inserting the 180 gr TTSX FB bullet (BC = 0.295) into the Hornady Ballistics Calculator with a muzzle velocity of 2600 ft/sec shows a remaining velocity at 275 yards of 1847 ft/sec.) Regarding a recommendation on the bullets you mentioned, I continue to like all the Barnes 180 and 200 gr bullets in the .358 Hoosier. I also like the 200 gr Nosler Accubond, although I have not personally hunted with it. A good hunting friend used the Nosler Accubond in his .358 Hoosier rifle to take a couple deer. They were pass through shots at 100 yards or less. Because of the bullet velocities, trajectories, and performance (and field-accuracy limitations of most hunters, myself included) I would usually not recommend shots at deer-size animals beyond 300 yards for the .358 Hoosier, regardless of bullet used. (By the way, the 200 gr Nosler Accubond has a BC of 0.365 compared to 0.367 for the 200 gr Barnes TTSX BT. So, remaining velocities of these two bullets at distance would be very similar because they can be loaded to nearly identical muzzle velocities.) For what it’s worth, my friend also used a 180 gr .308 Accubond in a 300 Win Mag (muzzle velocity nearly 3100 ft/sec and 350-yard velocity around 2450 ft/sec) to take a nice 5 X 5 bull elk at 350 yards last year in Colorado. It was a picture-perfect, broadside, pass through shot. The bullet broke a rib going in and another rib coming out the other side. The elk ran maybe 50 yards and dropped. I have no doubts that the bullet expanded well. However, the much thicker jacket metal in the lower portion of the bullet should have kept the bullet from losing a significant amount of its weight as it expanded. I would love to have seen the bullet after it penetrated the elk!! I realize much of what I have written is anecdotal, based on a limited number of personal observations and experiences of others. Your personal observations and evaluations of the experiences of others may be somewhat different from mine. Not a problem. I try to keep an open mind.
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Post by cedarthicket on Apr 8, 2014 19:27:49 GMT -5
In the last two weeks I chronographed loads with three additional powders and Barnes 200 grain TTSX BT bullets. These powders could be called “medium” burn rate rifle powders. These powders also have a lower bulk density than several other powders listed in the above Loading Data Table. As such, even using enough of these three powders to fill the case up to the bullet base, the fired cartridges produced a noticeably lower velocity than the “faster” burn rate rifle powders previously tested. I observed no excessive pressure signs and velocities were still high enough to cleanly take deer up to 200 yards. And, the indicated accuracy was good. Here is a summary of the results:
Barnes 200 gr. TTSX BT (B.C. = 0.367) …. C.O.L. = 2.73 inches
IMR 4895…….....40.0 gr = 2244 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 0.90 inches @ 50 yd IMR 4320…….....40.0 gr = 2252 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 0.65 inches @ 50 yd Accurate 2015..40.0 gr = 2393 ft/sec…..5-shot group = 0.65 inches @ 50 yd** Accurate 2015..38.0 gr = 2294 ft/sec…..5-shot group = 1.10 inches @ 100 yd**
**Not counting one obvious flyer due to shooter error in this group.
[The usual warning and disclaimer notice contained in the original loading data table applies.]
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Post by cedarthicket on Jun 18, 2014 19:59:27 GMT -5
Today I chronographed two 3-shot groups with Hodgdon’s Varget powder and the Barnes 200 grain TTSX BT bullets. This powder has become popular in the last few years. It is what could be called a “medium” burn rate rifle powder, in good company with other such powders as IMR 4895 and IMR 4320. These powders also have a lower bulk density than several other powders that I have tested. The charge of 42 grains of Varget filled up the newly-formed cases (from new.358 Winchester brass) to the junction of the neck and shoulder, resulting in a slight compression of the powder when the Barnes bullets were seated. I observed no excessive pressure signs and bullet velocities should be high enough to take deer up to 200 yards. And, the indicated accuracy was good. Air temperature was about 87 degrees. Here is a summary of the results:
Barnes 200 gr. TTSX BT (B.C. = 0.367) …. C.O.L. = 2.73 inches
Varget….……..42.0 gr = 2257 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 2.00 inches @ 100 yd (no fouling shots) Varget….……..42.0 gr = 2254 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 0.72 inches @ 100 yd
[The usual warning and disclaimer notice contained in the original loading data table applies.]
**********
Two days ago I used Varget powder with the Speer 180 gr HCFN (Hot Core Flat Nose) bullets. I tried charges from 41 up to 43.5 grains in the newly-formed cases. The 43 and 43.5 grain charges came up into the neck of the cases. The 43 grain charge resulted in slight powder compression and the 43.5 grain charge was moderately compressed. I observed no excessive pressure signs. Air temperature was about 82 degrees. Here is a summary of results:
Speer 180 gr. HCFN (B.C. = 0.237) …. C.O.L. = 2.48 inches
Varget….……..41.0 gr = 2144 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 0.70 inches @ 50 yd Varget….……..42.0 gr = 2193 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 1.15 inches @ 50 yd Varget….……..43.0 gr = 2233 ft/sec…..3-shot group = 0.88 inches @ 50 yd Varget….……..43.5 gr = 2281 ft/sec…..2-shot group = 0.30 inches @ 50 yd
[The usual warning and disclaimer notice contained in the original loading data table applies.]
So, you can use several “medium” burn rate powders in the .358 Hoosier. And, they may give you excellent accuracy. However, slightly faster (and perhaps higher bulk density) powders are needed to produce maximum velocities (at safe pressures) with a given bullet.
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Post by steve46511 on Jun 19, 2014 7:24:11 GMT -5
I probably missed it but have you tried IMR8208 and Ramshot TAC?
I REALLY liked the 8208 in the 350JR but it is a bit (not that much) larger in capacity. TAC is even denser yet but the comparison of Varget and 8208 wasn't even kinda close in my round. The 8208 was easily 200 fps faster without any kind of pressure signs with the 180 gr Speer. I could JUST get enough 8208 in the round to make the 220 grain speer show a bit of high pressure so I backed it up a bit.
I always wanted to try the TAC in it, since a bit denser but actually for this round I didn't need more grains of powder but it could have been a touch better in the lighter bullets.
I need to build another one. Dagnabit lol
God Bless
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Post by oldhoyt on Jun 20, 2014 6:59:11 GMT -5
I shot last night after work. 4 loads in 0.5 grain increments (20 total cartridges), 42 - 43.5 gr H322 with Speer 180 grain HCFN. Accuracy was very good, with no apparent difference (to me anyway), no signs of excess pressure at 43.5 gr. My Savage barrel is 24 ", so perhaps at 43.5 gr, my bullets are moving at 2650-2700.
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Post by BIGHORN on Jul 25, 2014 17:47:47 GMT -5
What is the trim length for .308 cases before running them through the Sizing die??
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Post by HuntMeister on Jul 25, 2014 18:16:09 GMT -5
What is the trim length for .308 cases before running them through the Sizing die?? Same as the final length, 1.80" or there abouts. I actually trim to 1.796", run through the hoosier die and then have to trim a second time as the case grows just a tad.
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