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Post by drs on Jun 1, 2011 8:07:08 GMT -5
David, a juiced up (hot handloaded) 460 is flatter and packs more KE than the wildcat you mention. Obviously, it would also be more expensive to set up and keep fed than buy Cor-bon factory loads or loading your own in the 460. IMO, in order for a wildcat cartrige to be a good choice, it needs to be substancially better than what else is available. Nevertheless, Tom, here is an interesting thread on the .357-44 B&D from another forum. This was just a suggestion just incase someone here was looking for another option for a rifle (wildcat) rifle cartridge. forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/2151064641
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Post by hornharvester on Jun 1, 2011 8:31:09 GMT -5
BC of a rifle bullet is far better than BC of a pistol bullet., .358 rifle bullets fly flatter with greater accuracy and faster speeds and that is the intent of a wildcat. h.h.
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Post by drs on Jun 1, 2011 9:40:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 9:46:39 GMT -5
With the low MV, you have to make sure you'll get some expansion or you loose out on tissue damage. That's why, larger diameter bullets are generally better at low velocity. The Hornady flex tip bullets are a good choice for deer and have decent BC's for a big bullet.
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Post by steiny on Jun 1, 2011 17:36:39 GMT -5
Give me the lighter, flatter shooting, more accurate bullet over a big heavy slug and a bunch of kinetic energy. Deer aren't too hard to kill if your bullet is placed properly.
The .358 IDC is sweet ! That will be my next one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2011 17:57:47 GMT -5
If you shoot or intend to shoot big midwestern WT's, it pays to have a substantial caliber and load, not that the .358 isn't. I don't have a problem with the caliber at all, just that there are as good choices that are much more economically viable.
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Post by drs on Jun 2, 2011 5:58:01 GMT -5
If you shoot or intend to shoot big midwestern WT's, it pays to have a substantial caliber and load, not that the .358 isn't. I don't have a problem with the caliber at all, just that there are as good choices that are much more economically viable. In short, Tom, those who hunt Whitetails, in Indiana, will always be restricted to using short ranged centerfire rifle ammo. The proposed 1.8" .357" (Min. caliber) is about all that will be allowed & I don't really see a problem with it as the average range Deer are shot is < 100 yards. I would imagine that a lot of landowners won't allow the use of anything larger if it were legal up there. What really puzzles me is why the state allows .410 slugs to be used for hunting Deer. In another hunting & shooting forum; lots of guys, hunting in Indiana have used .44-40's for Deer with success. They always shot their Deer at around 75 yards on average & most were using hotter handloads and Hornady 200 grain XTP .429" bullets.
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Post by parson on Jun 2, 2011 6:39:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2011 7:07:03 GMT -5
David, "always" is a long time. I don't see it being long before the few added deer that might be harvested at longer ranges will be welcomed by the DNR and those landowners that already allow HP rifles for varmints and dep. tags. The simple fact that one caliber is more dangerous than another is a myth, nothing more. The overall distance a bullet will travel is not much difference.
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Post by drs on Jun 2, 2011 7:36:48 GMT -5
David, The simple fact that one caliber is more dangerous than another is a myth, nothing more. Tom, this is one factor we both see "eye-to-eye" on. Getting the State of Indiana to agree with this, is another thing. As you know here in Ky, we can't use centerfire rifles for Squirrels, but Indiana allows their use for Squirrels. I have three good small centerfire rifles which I used for Squirrel hunting, when I lived in Indiana, that I would love to use here in Ky, but the law doesn't allow their use so I use my .22 LR's or shotgun for Squirrels. Had some fine Small Game loads worked up for my .22 Hornet & .25-20 Win. rifles. Sorry to have changed the subject slightly.
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Post by M4Madness on Jun 2, 2011 18:50:17 GMT -5
David, "always" is a long time. I don't see it being long before the few added deer that might be harvested at longer ranges will be welcomed by the DNR and those landowners that already allow HP rifles for varmints and dep. tags. I sold my .458 SOCOM a few months ago on the gamble that the DNR legalizes high-powered rifles for deer within the next 5 years. In the meantime, it's the ol' trusty muzzleloader for me. ;D
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Post by drs on Jun 3, 2011 5:49:35 GMT -5
I sold my .458 SOCOM a few months ago on the gamble that the DNR legalizes high-powered rifles for deer within the next 5 years. In the meantime, it's the ol' trusty muzzleloader for me. ;D Before the IDNR decided to allow PCR's for Deer; I too used mostly my T/C Muzzleloader for Deer. However regardless if the IDNR allows the use of cartridges of maxium length of 1.8" and minimum of .357". The main reason the State is thinking of allowing the extended length of 1.8" is due to a few cartridges like the .460 S&W. You can still buy yourself a good .44 Remington Mag. or another cartridge in the 1.6"/.357" range, if the law isn't passed. I just have a feeling (mine only) that the IDNR is not going to allow certain "Wildcat" cartridges like the .358 WSSM's or other similar good wildcat loads, is due to the fact they aren't true pistol cartridges. If they do then why not legalize all rifle cartridges? I never could understand why the State of Indiana will allow the use of "Rifle cartridges" in a pistol but not in a rifle for Deer Hunting. Sort of S TUPID if you ask me.
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Post by oldhoyt on Jun 3, 2011 6:20:40 GMT -5
There's no logic to it, that's pretty plain. I'd like to hunt with my lever action 45/70, which falls short of Indiana-legal cartridges in performance, but can't because the cartridge case is too long. Can't remember the last time I thought to myself, "Boy, I sure am glad my case was the right length for that shot!" They claim they want Indiana deer hunting to be a short-range hunting experience, but those days are gone even without wildcat rounds. I'd be in favor of allowing ANY rifle with open sights. This would (should) limit the ranges that shots are taken according to the eyesight and experience of the shooter. My 45/70 has a peep sight that is perfect for the woods I hunt.
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Post by drs on Jun 3, 2011 6:51:17 GMT -5
There's no logic to it, that's pretty plain. I'd like to hunt with my lever action 45/70, which falls short of Indiana-legal cartridges in performance, but can't because the cartridge case is too long. Can't remember the last time I thought to myself, "Boy, I sure am glad my case was the right length for that shot!" They claim they want Indiana deer hunting to be a short-range hunting experience, but those days are gone even without wildcat rounds. I'd be in favor of allowing ANY rifle with open sights. This would (should) limit the ranges that shots are taken according to the eyesight and experience of the shooter. My 45/70 has a peep sight that is perfect for the woods I hunt. What gets me is the fact that sabot shotgun slug loads have around (if not more) the same range/ballistics as your .45-70. While cartridges like a .270 & some wildcat loads, will have a farther range potential. The idea of "open sights" or "Peep sights" would be a good idea on cartridges longer than 1.8" & over .357" caliber.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 9:29:07 GMT -5
Crap David....now your asking for a restriction on sights. Ridiculous to say the least. sights have no bearing on how far a bullet will travel.
There are plenty of States that don't have stupid gun control restrictions on hunters, and they have as good or better safety satistics as does Indiana.
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Post by drs on Jun 3, 2011 10:54:09 GMT -5
Crap David....now your asking for a restriction on sights. Ridiculous to say the least. sights have no bearing on how far a bullet will travel. There are plenty of States that don't have stupid gun control restrictions on hunters, and they have as good or better safety satistics as does Indiana. I didn't make the statement concerning open sights, as this Idea was that of "oldhoyt's", and I just said it {might} be good. But with eyesight like mine I would want a good scope. State laws vary from state to state, and your correct inwhich some have good or better satistics as Indiana.
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Post by oldhoyt on Jun 3, 2011 15:36:59 GMT -5
I believe that limiting certain rifles to open sights would have a major bearing on the distance that shots at deer are attempted. Allegedly the DNR's objective is to keep deer hunting a short-medium range sport.
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Post by M4Madness on Jun 3, 2011 17:01:01 GMT -5
I just have a feeling (mine only) that the IDNR is not going to allow certain "Wildcat" cartridges like the .358 WSSM's or other similar good wildcat loads, is due to the fact they aren't true pistol cartridges. The state never required legal deer rifle cartridges to have actually been chambered in a pistol. The term "pistol caliber" is just the nomenclature that the DNR happened to use to describe the category. The NRC has stated unequivocally in their PCR report that they have zero problem with hunters using wildcat rounds as long as they fall within the legal parameters. For example, the .458 SOCOM was a rifle round designed by Marty ter Weeme for use by SOCOM forces in places where the 5.56MM just didn't have enough punch -- it was created solely with the military in mind to use in M16 rifles. Now the DNR has it listed in the hunting regulations in the sample list of legal deer rifle cartridges. I have a brand new weathershield T/C Omega Z5 with a Nikon Omega scope that has been sitting unused in my safe for at least a couple of seasons now. I've taken big deer with shotgun, rifle, and bow -- a muzzleloader is something I've never taken a big buck with, so I'm going to give it a shot.
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Post by tenring on Jun 3, 2011 17:20:59 GMT -5
It all started out twenty years ago, the original solicitation was to allow "straight walled" cartridges. Somewhere the nomenclature was changed [by an unknown person or persons] and the length requirement was added and nothing was said about not having a shoulder, and there you have it. And just how many individuals on this board use a "rifle" cartridge in a handgun? Curiosity in action.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 17:53:11 GMT -5
Bottom line is that Indiana regs, concerning legal calibers is out dated and without any data to back up claims that needed either for safety reasons or to manage the herd. As to the latter, it's obvious that isn't the case, with new regs on the horizon showing the need to increase the harvest totals. As for the notion that iron sights will keep someone from launching a hail-mary shot at a deer is just not true. It's another form of restricting choice.
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