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Post by vectrix on May 28, 2010 14:54:27 GMT -5
IF the goal of the DNR is to reduce the deer herd and in effect kill more deer, WHY would any type of restriction be considered??? ;D
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Post by swilk on May 28, 2010 15:02:04 GMT -5
Just out of curiousity if the EAB is such a great system why did the state of Wisconsin do away with it this past year? I don't live or hunt there but it seems some of the issues they was having was there was way way to many bucks and hardly any does because the does had been over harvested over the years. After several years of over harvesting does there wasn't any so everyone had to watch bucks walk by. Im not familiar with past Wisconsin game laws .... was their eab program for the first buck or second? The only thing I am certain of is the fact that no single plan is perfect .... no single plan will work in all situations .... no single plan will work for an indefinite amount if time. I guess that is 3 things .... but anyway. As the needs arise, adjustments must be made to any plan.
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Post by boonechaser on May 28, 2010 15:05:06 GMT -5
Sure the DNR want's to reduce are allready reduced deer herd because they want more revenue. That's it period. I also have a lifetime license and don't think for one one minute the DNR wishes they never sold any of these. Tried to buy one lately? Don't exist. Why?? They can make more money selling individual tag's. Why restriction's on EAB. My guess is several group's of hunter's want restriction's just as they want OBR to exist. DNR see's EAB as a revenue tool. MONEY MONEY MONEY.
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Post by vectrix on May 28, 2010 15:07:24 GMT -5
IMO, two things need to happen if that is truly their goal ..... Lower cost of antlerless tags. Implement a program that is little or no cost (or hassle) to the hunters to donate meat to the needy. I have a LTL so the first one doesnt really apply to me but it does to a lot of other folks. However, just because I have enough tags to kill an almost limitless number of deer I usually only shoot two a year because I have no use for more meat than that. Yea it makes no sense to me either. I do not have a problem buying my tags, should have purchased the LTL but didn't. Most and I stress most serious guys I know kill what they want and either quit or start "trophy hunting". I am usually passing on does by mid to late Oct. and have not shot shot a doe with a firearm in 6 yrs and thats all my family of 5 eats. I guess my biggest problem with any of the changes discussed is this: DNR needs to state what their stance is on this issue. I understand the whole need to kill more does for the good of the herd sentiment but what is the main purpose? Are their really counties some of you live in where the deer herd is busting out? To listen the our biologist they are so over populated they are going to be starving to death soon and I just don't buy it.
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Post by deerman1 on May 28, 2010 15:12:52 GMT -5
Then if you read my post I also said that there was a small percentage of "special" hunters that gained the fallowing of some other so that would put you in that small percentage of special hunters didn't it !!! I hate to do this but what about all them big mature deer you got where are they do you have on your wall or are you still waiting for them to jump out from behind every bush . Sure its not hard to shoot young immature bucks or the average doe now is it ?? ?? You may very well have some big ones on your wall and then in that case that makes you in that group who feels compelled to control what bucks other hunters take then doesn't it . And indeed you were one of the young hunters who fell in behind the pushers of this since you were only in you mid twenties when this was being pushed so you were struggling and still in the learning how to hunt mature deer at that time since the maturing of the hunter is as important as the maturing of the bucks when it comes to taking them isn't it. I don't see how killing 2 bucks helps you learn how to hunt big bucks? Or did I read this wrong? I can tell you this much, nobody will consistently kill a big buck by shooting every small one that comes past. I am what would be labeled a "trophy hunter" by some of your standards which means I have the will power not to crush every small buck that walks by. Honestly what is the difference between a tiny 2.5 yr old buck your not going to be proud of 2 weeks later and a doe? Will killing an extra tiny buck make a hunter feel better or like more of a hunter than the first? I don't care to control what size a deer any hunter can take, if a small buck makes you happy, then blast it. I guess my point is this: Wouldn't you rather have mature deer running your hunting grounds than small ones. I have a hard time believing any person on here who say they wouldn't love to drop a trophy buck. Those are the guys that don't have the will power to pass on the small ones. I never said killing two small or tiny bucks will make a hunter a mature buck hunter or better at hunting mature bucks . That said hunters need a learning curve .That curve varies from hunter to hunter but it takes many bucks and years under the belt and a whole bunch more encounters with as many bucks in the woods as possible to get to some what a grasp of what the differences are between every age class of bucks . So in fact yes shooting a hunters share of young or small bucks is part of that getting to the mature buck and mature hunter level that every hunter truly wants to be at. So the TBR actually did and does speed up that learning curve setting there hoping that a big buck walks by because some other hunter let a small buck walk by will never get the hunter there or it will take many more years to get there . So yes taking some small bucks is a stepping stone for most hunters to get tired of it and learning what it takes to upgrade to say the next level of buck hs and buck hunter and that is say guys who now look for the 2.5 or 3.5 year old bucks that score better and carry between 110 to say 130 inches of antler . Then after some of those fall to them they are ready to pass up some of those bucks and head for the next level of hunter and buck . That is where the hunter has to change himslf and the area he hunts more than any other jump .They must learn that those big mature 45 on up in age bucks are the tuffest to see and take . They will return to the lower level hunter and settle for some good 3.5 year olds .But they will slowly start to get what they must do and change about their hunting habits and tactics to get those fleeting chances to take the mature bucks . Now they are ready to take what is for many hunters the next and last step and that is to heavily manage the land and deer thay hunt and that does not mean just shooting does indiscriminately to grow big bucks . That is where they change the land ,stands ,approaches ,mow ,plant count deer , and only hunt perfect days at the right time of year not head to the woods just cause they wanted to jumping deer the whole way in because they did not make a good decision about hunting that day. This phase often requires a hunter to take a buck that would be not welcome on the land thy own for the antler characteristics the TBR put into practice again for the hunter who wants only the bst bucks breeding his does. And yes there are some hunters who just want to kill a couple of bucks any bucks because they can thats fine they will change eventually .And honestly the deer herd is so large now we as hunters will likely never know the differance because the simple fact is if they are shooting two dinks they are not killing the next years trophy or the trophy you are after now see the logic in that I do very clearly . And some old timers want to just have fun and not be limited to just one buck in thest few years that they hunt before they die or just can no longer go to that woods. Hope this was eiser to read and answered your question.
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Post by deerman1 on May 28, 2010 15:15:36 GMT -5
Just out of curiousity if the EAB is such a great system why did the state of Wisconsin do away with it this past year? I don't live or hunt there but it seems some of the issues they was having was there was way way to many bucks and hardly any does because the does had been over harvested over the years. After several years of over harvesting does there wasn't any so everyone had to watch bucks walk by. Im not familiar with past Wisconsin game laws .... was their eab program for the first buck or second? The only thing I am certain of is the fact that no single plan is perfect .... no single plan will work in all situations .... no single plan will work for an indefinite amount if time. I guess that is 3 things .... but anyway. As the needs arise, adjustments must be made to any plan. The EAB there was the only way to shoot any buck and it wrecked thier deer herd in 10 years to the point they started looseing hunters faster than der.
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Post by deerman1 on May 28, 2010 15:20:28 GMT -5
IMO, two things need to happen if that is truly their goal ..... Lower cost of antlerless tags. Implement a program that is little or no cost (or hassle) to the hunters to donate meat to the needy. I have a LTL so the first one doesnt really apply to me but it does to a lot of other folks. However, just because I have enough tags to kill an almost limitless number of deer I usually only shoot two a year because I have no use for more meat than that. Yea it makes no sense to me either. I do not have a problem buying my tags, should have purchased the LTL but didn't. Most and I stress most serious guys I know kill what they want and either quit or start "trophy hunting". I am usually passing on does by mid to late Oct. and have not shot shot a doe with a firearm in 6 yrs and thats all my family of 5 eats. I guess my biggest problem with any of the changes discussed is this: DNR needs to state what their stance is on this issue. I understand the whole need to kill more does for the good of the herd sentiment but what is the main purpose? Are their really counties some of you live in where the deer herd is busting out? To listen the our biologist they are so over populated they are going to be starving to death soon and I just don't buy it. There are enough or several deer in the 4 counties I like to hunt in .That said they are not busting out in any of them and are not at or even close to carring capacity anywhere I hunt. . I think that they are talking if you read the DNR stuff targeting only ciertain counties not all with the new laws and extra der harves t .But I may be wrong .But that is what Chad S. told me a month ago on the phone.
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Post by boonechaser on May 28, 2010 15:29:48 GMT -5
I've lived and hunted in switerland county for past 8 year's. Our herd number's have dropped drastically. Hunt in several location's in county and deer sighting's are down a ton. Yet DNR say's the deer herd is growing? You can get 8 anterless tag's if you want !!!! Now they want to reduce another 25%. RIGHT. DNR's goal is to make money period. I work for an insurance agency. Our agency deer collison claim's have fall'n each of the past four year's, but again our deer herd is growing? Sure we shoot record number's of deer each year but there are more hunter's and bag limit's keep going up, so logic says we should kill more deer. DNR should just come out and say we want to kill more deer so we can make more money!!!
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Post by Woody Williams on May 28, 2010 16:00:40 GMT -5
I still have not found anyhwere where the IDNR said they wre after a 25% reduction. Only that ONE reporter stated that,.
The total number of deer-vehicle collisions in Indiana has increased between 2003 and 2009, an indicator that the state’s deer population may be on the rise. But not all counties have experienced an increase. These numbers, supplied by the Indiana Department of Transportation indicate how the numbers have varied from year to year.
In Indiana
2003: 14,390
2005: 14,500
2006: 16, 105
2007: 16,547
2008: 15,934
2009: 16, 180
Total number of deer-vehicle collisions from 2003 to 2009:
108,554
In Madison County
2003: 188
2004: 181
2005: 161
2006: 184
2007: 162
2008: 209
2009: 207
BTW - I am sure that these are just "reported" deer auto accidents.
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Post by vectrix on May 28, 2010 16:05:35 GMT -5
I don't see how killing 2 bucks helps you learn how to hunt big bucks? Or did I read this wrong? I can tell you this much, nobody will consistently kill a big buck by shooting every small one that comes past. I am what would be labeled a "trophy hunter" by some of your standards which means I have the will power not to crush every small buck that walks by. Honestly what is the difference between a tiny 2.5 yr old buck your not going to be proud of 2 weeks later and a doe? Will killing an extra tiny buck make a hunter feel better or like more of a hunter than the first? I don't care to control what size a deer any hunter can take, if a small buck makes you happy, then blast it. I guess my point is this: Wouldn't you rather have mature deer running your hunting grounds than small ones. I have a hard time believing any person on here who say they wouldn't love to drop a trophy buck. Those are the guys that don't have the will power to pass on the small ones. I never said killing two small or tiny bucks will make a hunter a mature buck hunter or better at hunting mature bucks . That said hunters need a learning curve .That curve varies from hunter to hunter but it takes many bucks and years under the belt and a whole bunch more encounters with as many bucks in the woods as possible to get to some what a grasp of what the differences are between every age class of bucks . So in fact yes shooting a hunters share of young or small bucks is part of that getting to the mature buck and mature hunter level that every hunter truly wants to be at. So the TBR actually did and does speed up that learning curve setting there hoping that a big buck walks by because some other hunter let a small buck walk by will never get the hunter there or it will take many more years to get there . So yes taking some small bucks is a stepping stone for most hunters to get tired of it and learning what it takes to upgrade to say the next level of buck hs and buck hunter and that is say guys who now look for the 2.5 or 3.5 year old bucks that score better and carry between 110 to say 130 inches of antler . Then after some of those fall to them they are ready to pass up some of those bucks and head for the next level of hunter and buck . That is where the hunter has to change himslf and the area he hunts more than any other jump .They must learn that those big mature 45 on up in age bucks are the tuffest to see and take . They will return to the lower level hunter and settle for some good 3.5 year olds .But they will slowly start to get what they must do and change about their hunting habits and tactics to get those fleeting chances to take the mature bucks . Now they are ready to take what is for many hunters the next and last step and that is to heavily manage the land and deer thay hunt and that does not mean just shooting does indiscriminately to grow big bucks . That is where they change the land ,stands ,approaches ,mow ,plant count deer , and only hunt perfect days at the right time of year not head to the woods just cause they wanted to jumping deer the whole way in because they did not make a good decision about hunting that day. This phase often requires a hunter to take a buck that would be not welcome on the land thy own for the antler characteristics the TBR put into practice again for the hunter who wants only the bst bucks breeding his does. And yes there are some hunters who just want to kill a couple of bucks any bucks because they can thats fine they will change eventually .And honestly the deer herd is so large now we as hunters will likely never know the differance because the simple fact is if they are shooting two dinks they are not killing the next years trophy or the trophy you are after now see the logic in that I do very clearly . And some old timers want to just have fun and not be limited to just one buck in thest few years that they hunt before they die or just can no longer go to that woods. Hope this was eiser to read and answered your question. Yea I do kind of see your point, I quit shooting small deer because I got tired of shooting small deer.. hope that makes sense. I do disagree however that you need to kill 2 bucks a year to get tired of killing small ones. I remember as a kid before I was feeding my family with them, I would kill a buck and then some jerk would come along and take one bigger than mine.lol I wasn't hunting for meat back then , I was hunting for status and bragging right and nothing else. IMO there are basically three types of deerhunters. 1. The hardcore : this guy lives, sleeps and breaths deer. He counts on it as part of his meal. He hunts with all the legal weapons and loves to chase those big whitetails. Passing deer is easy if he thinks it will keep him in the woods longer where the trophy is roaming. He knows if he shoots does to fill his freezer early on it won't interfere with his buck hunting during the rut. 2. The meat hunter: In my eyes this guy is usually an older gentleman who has been there done that and is content to put his tag on any deer just to be in the woods. Bragging rights or trophies really mean nothing to him, it's just about being out there. 3. The slob: This is the guy you see in walmart buying any old slug and his tag, if he buys one at all the night before season. He is also the guy you see driving by your spot at first light real slow complete with his orange hat on hoping there is one close enough to the road since he was too lazy to find a spot to hunt. Prperty lines mean nothing nor do limits or game laws. It's about bragging rights, keeping up with his buddies. He's the guy you run off and he say's he didn't see any signs that say no trespassing so he thought it would be ok. Experience say's he's the one you here most often firing off that volly of shots in the distance and you think WOW was were they shooting at! There is atleast a few of each of these types that visit such forums and they all have their own opinion..............Also for you guys saying Geezzzz Vectrix get off your soapbox remember this, I have been off work for over 2 weeks and my wife is a babysitter...lol
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Post by beehunter on May 28, 2010 16:21:20 GMT -5
Also for you guys saying Geezzzz Vectrix get off your soapbox remember this, I have been off work for over 2 weeks and my wife is a babysitter...lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by greghopper on May 28, 2010 16:25:13 GMT -5
hahaha. I am a supporter of the OBR and I would also support some sort of EAB program. Golly, I never knew i was a not so good hunter without access to good hunting ground. Tell me something else about myself that I didnt know oh wise one. Pretty please?? Exactly... Do you think people ever will grow tired of looking down there noses at those that aren't worthy of them?
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Post by ridgerunner on May 28, 2010 16:29:02 GMT -5
I still have not found anyhwere where the IDNR said they wre after a 25% reduction. Only that ONE reporter stated that,. The total number of deer-vehicle collisions in Indiana has increased between 2003 and 2009, an indicator that the state’s deer population may be on the rise. But not all counties have experienced an increase. These numbers, supplied by the Indiana Department of Transportation indicate how the numbers have varied from year to year. In Indiana 2003: 14,390 2005: 14,500 2006: 16, 105 2007: 16,547 2008: 15,934 2009: 16, 180 Total number of deer-vehicle collisions from 2003 to 2009: 108,554 In Madison County 2003: 188 2004: 181 2005: 161 2006: 184 2007: 162 2008: 209 2009: 207 BTW - I am sure that these are just "reported" deer auto accidents. Maybe we have more people in Indiana driving today than 10 years ago....? Thus more cars and therefore increasing the number of deer getting hit by vehicles and not necessarily more deer...but more cars...maybe we need to open a season on vehicles...lol...our borders are WIDE open in the Good ole USA....Our population isn;t dwindleing that's for sure...
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Post by bowhunt01 on May 28, 2010 16:44:28 GMT -5
I am having a hard time understanding that with all the does we are allowed to kill in Indiana why is everyone so obsessed with wanting to kill a second buck.I read nothing but complaints on here about the cost of tags and yet people seem to want another one. I read about people not wanting any kind of restrictions on the second buck so what is the purpose of having to kill it. If you want no restrictions it seems to me that your not any kind of trophy hunter. Whats the point of killing another buck if your going to just cut the antlers off and throw em in the corner. If your looking to fill the freezer shoot some does. They taste alot better anyway. And in my opinion I believe the OBR is what made this state on of the top states in the country for record bucks.
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Post by boonechaser on May 28, 2010 18:41:24 GMT -5
Thanks for actual stat's on deeer vehicle collsion's. I can only speak for our agency's 5 offices . But still show's has leveled off. Plus fact that there are more vehicles on road and not to mention less deer habitat, espically in urban area's. Six year's ago entered BC and P&Y entree's compared to last year's number's. Why are they going up? What has changed in Indiana's deer hunting management? ONE BUCK RULE. More buck's live to next. I"m drink'n the whole bottle of kool aid. Got 11 120 inch up to 156inch bucks on my wall. 10 with bow. 2 in last 2 year's . Long live OBR.
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Post by racktracker on May 28, 2010 19:49:47 GMT -5
The followers off the OBR learned one thing that a lot of us knew for a long, long time. You'll never kill a big buck if you keep shooting the little bucks. Chances are if you are just after a set of horns the first buck by you will be a little buck. Kill him and you wont see that monstor buck three days later.
There was a ton of us hunters doing just that - passing little bucks until we saw the one that we wanted to take. The OBR did not change out deer selection, we were a step ahead of that. All the OBR did was cut down our time in the woods after a second big buck, that very seldom materialized. But we had fun trying.
There is no doubt in my mind that a one buck with a bow and one buck with a gun will not change the herd make up one bit. here was just not that many Indiana deer hunters killing two bucks a year. I know I ate second buck tag soup a lot. Even had a few no buck years.
I have a hard time believing that we can kill 400 does statewide and we can only kill one buck. Isn't the buck to doe fawn ratio still about one to one?
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Post by vectrix on May 28, 2010 20:00:48 GMT -5
I am having a hard time understanding that with all the does we are allowed to kill in Indiana why is everyone so obsessed with wanting to kill a second buck.I read nothing but complaints on here about the cost of tags and yet people seem to want another one. I read about people not wanting any kind of restrictions on the second buck so what is the purpose of having to kill it. If you want no restrictions it seems to me that your not any kind of trophy hunter. Whats the point of killing another buck if your going to just cut the antlers off and throw em in the corner. If your looking to fill the freezer shoot some does. They taste alot better anyway. And in my opinion I believe the OBR is what made this state on of the top states in the country for record bucks. Amen
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Post by racktracker on May 28, 2010 20:27:24 GMT -5
I am having a hard time understanding that with all the does we are allowed to kill in Indiana why is everyone so obsessed with wanting to kill a second buck.I read nothing but complaints on here about the cost of tags and yet people seem to want another one. I read about people not wanting any kind of restrictions on the second buck so what is the purpose of having to kill it. If you want no restrictions it seems to me that your not any kind of trophy hunter. Whats the point of killing another buck if your going to just cut the antlers off and throw em in the corner. If your looking to fill the freezer shoot some does. They taste alot better anyway. And in my opinion I believe the OBR is what made this state on of the top states in the country for record bucks. Amen In the last 11 years we have killed: 545,590 bucks and728,220 antlerless deer How much longer do we have to kill 7 antlerless deer for every 5 antlered deer?
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Post by elmo on May 28, 2010 20:32:35 GMT -5
Just out of curiousity if the EAB is such a great system why did the state of Wisconsin do away with it this past year? I don't live or hunt there but it seems some of the issues they was having was there was way way to many bucks and hardly any does because the does had been over harvested over the years. After several years of over harvesting does there wasn't any so everyone had to watch bucks walk by. Im not familiar with past Wisconsin game laws .... was their eab program for the first buck or second? The only thing I am certain of is the fact that no single plan is perfect .... no single plan will work in all situations .... no single plan will work for an indefinite amount if time. I guess that is 3 things .... but anyway. As the needs arise, adjustments must be made to any plan. You say that as the needs arise, adjustments must be made to any plan. Then why do you seem to be holding onto the OBR so tightly. Maybe it's run its course. Maybe it's tine to earn a second no restriction buck. I don't really care that much one way or another, because I do hunt the parks and military refuge. I can and do kill more than 1 buck in most years.
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Post by deerman1 on May 28, 2010 20:51:13 GMT -5
I never said killing two small or tiny bucks will make a hunter a mature buck hunter or better at hunting mature bucks . That said hunters need a learning curve .That curve varies from hunter to hunter but it takes many bucks and years under the belt and a whole bunch more encounters with as many bucks in the woods as possible to get to some what a grasp of what the differences are between every age class of bucks . So in fact yes shooting a hunters share of young or small bucks is part of that getting to the mature buck and mature hunter level that every hunter truly wants to be at. So the TBR actually did and does speed up that learning curve setting there hoping that a big buck walks by because some other hunter let a small buck walk by will never get the hunter there or it will take many more years to get there . So yes taking some small bucks is a stepping stone for most hunters to get tired of it and learning what it takes to upgrade to say the next level of buck hs and buck hunter and that is say guys who now look for the 2.5 or 3.5 year old bucks that score better and carry between 110 to say 130 inches of antler . Then after some of those fall to them they are ready to pass up some of those bucks and head for the next level of hunter and buck . That is where the hunter has to change himslf and the area he hunts more than any other jump .They must learn that those big mature 45 on up in age bucks are the tuffest to see and take . They will return to the lower level hunter and settle for some good 3.5 year olds .But they will slowly start to get what they must do and change about their hunting habits and tactics to get those fleeting chances to take the mature bucks . Now they are ready to take what is for many hunters the next and last step and that is to heavily manage the land and deer thay hunt and that does not mean just shooting does indiscriminately to grow big bucks . That is where they change the land ,stands ,approaches ,mow ,plant count deer , and only hunt perfect days at the right time of year not head to the woods just cause they wanted to jumping deer the whole way in because they did not make a good decision about hunting that day. This phase often requires a hunter to take a buck that would be not welcome on the land thy own for the antler characteristics the TBR put into practice again for the hunter who wants only the bst bucks breeding his does. And yes there are some hunters who just want to kill a couple of bucks any bucks because they can thats fine they will change eventually .And honestly the deer herd is so large now we as hunters will likely never know the differance because the simple fact is if they are shooting two dinks they are not killing the next years trophy or the trophy you are after now see the logic in that I do very clearly . And some old timers want to just have fun and not be limited to just one buck in thest few years that they hunt before they die or just can no longer go to that woods. Hope this was eiser to read and answered your question. Yea I do kind of see your point, I quit shooting small deer because I got tired of shooting small deer.. hope that makes sense. I do disagree however that you need to kill 2 bucks a year to get tired of killing small ones. I remember as a kid before I was feeding my family with them, I would kill a buck and then some jerk would come along and take one bigger than mine.lol I wasn't hunting for meat back then , I was hunting for status and bragging right and nothing else. IMO there are basically three types of deerhunters. 1. The hardcore : this guy lives, sleeps and breaths deer. He counts on it as part of his meal. He hunts with all the legal weapons and loves to chase those big whitetails. Passing deer is easy if he thinks it will keep him in the woods longer where the trophy is roaming. He knows if he shoots does to fill his freezer early on it won't interfere with his buck hunting during the rut. 2. The meat hunter: In my eyes this guy is usually an older gentleman who has been there done that and is content to put his tag on any deer just to be in the woods. Bragging rights or trophies really mean nothing to him, it's just about being out there. 3. The slob: This is the guy you see in walmart buying any old slug and his tag, if he buys one at all the night before season. He is also the guy you see driving by your spot at first light real slow complete with his orange hat on hoping there is one close enough to the road since he was too lazy to find a spot to hunt. Prperty lines mean nothing nor do limits or game laws. It's about bragging rights, keeping up with his buddies. He's the guy you run off and he say's he didn't see any signs that say no trespassing so he thought it would be ok. Experience say's he's the one you here most often firing off that volly of shots in the distance and you think WOW was were they shooting at! There is atleast a few of each of these types that visit such forums and they all have their own opinion..............Also for you guys saying Geezzzz Vectrix get off your soapbox remember this, I have been off work for over 2 weeks and my wife is a babysitter...lol I get that but those slobs rarely if ever vist hunting forums thay are too busy hideing what they do. Honestly there are not nearly as many not even close to the number of good hunters who just like to hunt and there are even more who want to be deer managers but really just do not know what they are doing at it but they try and just need some help . JMHO on this stuff but very educated as a guess we just here about the bad guys 100 to 1 against the good ones .
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