|
|
Post by Chucker on Jan 15, 2006 20:13:11 GMT -5
To start with gundude not all of the sportsman's round table are against high fence hunting.The Indiana trappers and the beaglers both support high fence hunting....Yes you are right to assume that these groups are in fact allies with PETA on this issue.Whats so hard to understand about that?I was at one dnr meeting and almost all the opposition was from the anti HSUS and Peta groups.Apparently you don't understand the anti hunting element?The fact is no one and I mean no one wants this banned more than the animal rights groups!What difference would it make if ALL groups were against this? If its right its right and I don't care who's against it.You can fall for the antis lies if you choose i refuse to.Long live high fence hunting in Indiana!Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 15, 2006 20:40:21 GMT -5
To start with gundude not all of the sportsman's round table are against high fence hunting.The Indiana trappers and the beaglers both support high fence hunting.... What organization is this "Indiana trappers and the beaglers"? You certainly can not speak for all people that run beagles or all the trappers in this state. Can you give us a position paper or website where we can find their postion on this? Not that we don't beleive you or anything but we have had people make those claims in the past and never provided proof. Now I KNOW that Gundude can give you a position paper from any of the organizations that he has named. Really? Which meeting was that? How did you know that they were HSUS and Peta? Did they all wear PeTa shirts? Did they identify themselves as that? How did you know? Be very careful in your answer as someone on this board was at each of the meetings. |
|
|
|
Post by gundude on Jan 15, 2006 21:21:16 GMT -5
Ya got me Chucker. It's hard for me to say but I am MAN enough to admit when I am wrong..... It's true, I am a member of PETA.... People Eating Tasty Animals!!!!!!. Now if you Will excuse me I will wallow in my shame as I Finnish off my FREE RANGING, FAIR CHASE ,CWD FREE BBQ BACK STRAPS!  Sorry my Friend but your Beagle don't hunt! |
|
|
|
Post by Chucker on Jan 15, 2006 21:58:19 GMT -5
Woody said:What organization is this "Indiana trappers and the beaglers"? You certainly can not speak for all people that run beagles or all the trappers in this state.
I'm referring to the Indiana state trappers association.A motion was made at the past ISTA Convention to oppose the banning high fence hunting and it passed by the membership in attendance by a very large margin.The beaglers are the beagle group thats on the roundtable I'm not sure of the official name?Maybe Indiana beaglers?I'm not sure but there may be more on the roundtable that also oppose this ban.
Now as far as saying that all trappers or hunters oppose this ban is not true.I'm aware of that,But its also true that all IDHA members are not necessarily supportive of this ban.
The meeting I went to was sugar ridge and I heard a few people say when testifying that they were members of HSUS ect.I also know that PETA and HSUS were urging there supporters to send emails urging the dnr to ban high fence hunting.
Woody the fact is as I stated no group would like to see this banned more than the antis.The fact that some hunting groups also support this is part of there plan to divide and conquer.I'm speaking as someone who has never hunted behind a high fence and probably never will.To ban this is simply wrong and only gives the antis more ammo to go after the next group.By the way thanks Woody for a great site I enjoy it very much.Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by genehopkins on Jan 15, 2006 23:13:46 GMT -5
Do you really love to hunt?
If you love the whitetail deer - if you love seeing the beautiful and wiley whitetail in their natural setting (the wild) and if you want to see our hunting heritage preserved for future generations of hunters and people who just love to watch wildllife - you should study this bill very seriously. If we let these shooting preserves continue, we will sign the death warrant of whitetail in our state. Please read on.
Don't let people like Spike hijack our sport and turn it into something that isn't recognizable to those of us who live and breath hunting. Study fenced shooting preserves, what they do, and what impact that they have had in other states. PLEASE! Then contact your legislator (state senator and state representative) and let them know how bad this bill is.
Study where there "shooter bucks" come from. They are pen-born, hand raised domesticated animals sold into the pen. They aren't wild deer or elk. Far from it. Even the preserve owners call them domesticated animals.
Study and learn about Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD). It is real. It is serious. The state of Wisconsin has spent literally millions of dollars from sportsman's license fees trying to control this always fatal disease. Money that could have been spent to purchase additional habitat for wildlife.
Know that the strategy in states with CWD is to eliminate the deer from the infected area. Know that there is no cure for CWD. Once an area has been infected, know that there is no known way to get rid of it. Forever.
Know that CWD is closely related to Mad-Cow Disease. Scared? I am.
Know that the "poster boy" of the Indiana shooting presrves is currently in jail for breaking many, many game laws last year on his shooting preserve. He was the one that they all held up as the example of "how to run a fenced shooting preserve". I am afraid that he probably was a good example of how they operate. Shooting drugged deer in 3 acre pens.
Know that the 80% of the non-hunters who look at our sport will begin to see deer and elk being shot inside these game-proof pens and wonder why hunting should continue.
Anyone who would like to see a copy of the DVD which shows sick deer being propped up to be shot on a shooting preserve, email me and I will arrange for a copy to be sent to your group if you will promise me that you will use it to educate people about this issue.
In this video, you will see deer / elk shooting preserves as they really are. Remember, this video was shot on the preserve that the industry themselves said was "the model". You will see drugged deer shaking their head in a daze as the "shooter" (I won't call them hunters) shoot them in small pens. You will see a "famous" deer hunter having a large drugged buck back and forth in front of him until he can finally get a shot that doesn't have the fence in view for his TV show.
Watch the video. Read about CWD. Learn about tame deer sold into pens to be shot. Then you decide if this is what you want hunting to become.
And by the way Spike, calling us all ARF's won't work. Anyone who knows me knows that I have been a bowhunter for almost 40 years. I live to hunt. I stood in the rain to counter the hunt protestors at Brown County Park. I stood in the cold to defend the first deer hunts at Muscatatuck NWR. And I will stand opposed to these canned hunt operations just as sure as I stood against the ARF's.
I live and breath bowhunting. And I believe in all my heart that these fenced shooting preserves are the greatest threat to bowhunting that we have faced in my lifetime.
|
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 16, 2006 7:09:06 GMT -5
I'm referring to the Indiana state trappers association. A motion was made at the past ISTA Convention to oppose the banning high fence hunting and it passed by the membership in attendance by a very large margin. Who do I contact to verify that? Do they have a published position paper? Are you talking about Jack Hyden's group? We've been hard pressed to find out that his group is an actual group. He has a website for sure, but anyone can put up a website and say they are an organization. I’ve never debated with Jack on this subject. I just lurked as other conversed with him. I have to tell you very honestly, jack didn’t have a lot of credibility with me after reading some of the stuff that he typed. That is very true. There are some hunters that don't see the harm in preserves either. It is a divisive issue for some. But a very large percentage of the hunters that I am around are against the deer preserve "hunting". No, what the ONE lady said was that she works for the Humane Society of that county. That is VERY different than being a HSUS member. The HSUS has absolutely nothing to do with local human societies. She even said that she was not opposed to hunting and that her husband deer hunted. She had two friends with her, but neither one of them was a HSUS, PeTa or worked for the local humane society. That is a far cry from your statement of “almost all the opposition was from the anti HSUS and Peta groups.” Kevin1, Raporter and I were at that meeting and gave input. Did you include us as part of the “HSUS and PeTa” statement? Now, I will say this – almost all of the supporters for the high fenced “hunting” seemed to have financial ties to deer farming. I can only recall two people that identified themselves as hunters only that were in favor of fenced “hunting”. The supporters even had their entire families there. Little Amish kids in bib overhauls nervously getting up, staring down at the floor and mumbling “I support high fence hunting “ and sitting back down. I know that you were keeping count of the for and against as if the IDNR was taking a vote on whether to allow this practice or not. That is not the way that they operate. Kyle was there to hear what people had to say and gather facts, not count noses. I doubt very seriously that getting a kid to stand up and say “I support high fence hunting “ carried much weight with him. I personally handed Kyle my talking points after I finished giving input. My main thrust was that the REAL hunting “industry” in Indiana generates untold millions of dollars yearly. That REAL hunting “industry” would be put in jeopardy if “shooting preserves’ are allowed to flourish. That is the kind of information that Kyle was looking for and would consider in making his decision. As I said, Kevin1, Raporter and I were at that meeting and gave input and they can vouch for what I have typed here.. I’ll not deny that. Some had ARF written all over them. But, again, I believe that Kyle looked at the messages and information to make his decision and did not necessarily make it on the volume of emails or participants at the meetings. No doubt that the antis want it all. That is a big reason why a very large majority of hunters do not want to cast their lots with the “fenced hunting industry”. I am aware of the “slippery slope” arguments, but my feeling are that by having wild and free hunting tied in with the “fenced hunting industry” we would go down that slope a LOT quicker. I feel just as strongly against ANY commercialization of our hunting heritage. But, you own one don’t you? See above.. We do seem to have a good group here. We also allow discussion of any pertinent topic, even fenced “hunting” as long as it remains civil. |
|
|
|
Post by Chucker on Jan 16, 2006 10:23:29 GMT -5
Woody said:Who do I contact to verify that? Do they have a published position paper?
Well Im a director of that group and I brought up the motion.Its in the meeting minutes.
Woody said:Are you talking about Jack Hyden's group
That is the one I believe?
Woody said:That is very true. There are some hunters that don't see the harm in preserves either. It is a divisive issue for some. But a very large percentage of the hunters that I am around are against the deer preserve "hunting".
Yes it is divisive.I happen to see nothing wrong with this practice.Im used to fighting antis and Im used to dealing with antis and I know how they work.
Woody said:But, you own one don’t you?
No I dont and never have? I have NO finicinal interest in high fence hunting period..
To me this shouldnt even be an issue.The way another person wants to hunt concerns me none as long as its legel!Live and let live is a motto I try to live by.Woody I appriciate haveing a site where we can debate the issues in a calm civel manner.While we may disagree o this issue im sure we agree on many more.I respest your opionion as I hope you do mine,Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by spike on Jan 16, 2006 13:26:09 GMT -5
JKD- Strike three- <EDIT> If you look long enough you will find some bogus info to support your position. The fact is that throughout the State they was only 74 people showed up to oppose the High fence industry. MOS of them were little old ladies- sportsmen maybe, but most likely HSUS. That leaves only 30 or so sportsmen who showed up to oppose. Oddly enough there were several who stood up and said I am or was a memebr of the IDHA, IBA, ISTA or whatever and said they supported the high fence industry. <EDIT> .
Gene made a good point- Do you love hunting ? If you do you better protect it. Because HSUS and PETA have infultrated our State into dividing Sportsmen. Then every single one of us loses the choice to hunt how we wish. Of course we are all different- I would love to get rid of the right to hunt with a recurve because of the senseless wounding that occur from someone living in the past who thinks they are still primitive. But if that is what they want then I will support them.
If we do not change with the times will will lose. 28 State have recognized this fact and have embraced and protected the fastest strongest segment of hunting today. Without the preserve industry hunting will not survive longterm. There is only 4 to 6 percent of the population that hunt. That is a small group !
Beware of the wolves with sheep clothing on here. They are only out to protect their own personal agenda, not Hunting or the future of Hunting. They are not worried about passing things on to our children. They only want to hunt for themselve in the near future. Those of us concerned about the hutning heritage and the future must bond together and save our sport.
The only support these people have has been PETA/HSUS and a hand full of extremist hunters . While most hunters support well run preserves, these people would like to take your rights away. They can't realize that sleeping with the enemy will kill them as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 16, 2006 14:19:55 GMT -5
Woody said:Who do I contact to verify that? Do they have a published position paper? Well Im a director of that group and I brought up the motion.Its in the meeting minutes. If you don't mind email it to me please. As I said, Jack's credibility is lax to me. I've done a few battles with them myself. Enough to know my true enemy. My mistake. I had you confused with another person. I I do have to ask though - Why did you put a question mark on the supposed statement of "No I dont and never have." ?? I respect everyone opinion, but I and others usually have to be pursuaded by facts. Just plain old opinions don't cut it.. |
|
|
|
Post by 911 on Jan 16, 2006 20:08:52 GMT -5
Spike your numbers are ridiculous i was at the Ft Harrison meeting and another member of this board and i kept track and there was overwhelming opposition to high fence hunting. I beleive there were only a couple of people with no financial interest who were for high fenced deer hunting.
I wonder why there were so many amish at the meeting im sure they were just regular guys who were all in favor of high fenced hunting. No financial interest at all.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chucker on Jan 16, 2006 20:46:27 GMT -5
Woody said:If you don't mind email it to me please.
I don't have them but I will pm the info to you.
Woody said:I've done a few battles with them myself. Enough to know my true enemy.
Are you saying Pets and HSUS aren't our enemy's?
Woody said:My mistake. I had you confused with another person. I I do have to ask though - Why did you put a question mark on the supposed statement of "No I don't and never have." ??
Because I was questioning why you thought I owned a high fence operation.
Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 16, 2006 22:10:22 GMT -5
Woody said:If you don't mind email it to me please. I don't have them but I will pm the info to you. That will be fine. Absolutely they are our enemy in most cases. Hmm. That is strange way of questioning. Why didn't you just come out and ask me? Question - Do you have any family or friends in the deer farming or deer "preserve" shooting business |
|
|
|
Post by Chucker on Jan 16, 2006 23:03:41 GMT -5
Woody I have told you I have no financial interest in ANY hunting preserve or deer farm.I do know someone who does but I wont bring them into this.Why all the questions? I am opposed to this ban for very legitimate reasons.I don't need to convince you of anything,You believe what you want and I will do likewise.I hope common sense prevails and the bill to keep high fence hunting passes.Thats my view of things.Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 17, 2006 7:40:11 GMT -5
Woody I have told you I have no financial interest in ANY hunting preserve or deer farm.I do know someone who does but I wont bring them into this.Why all the questions? Because have seen that about 9 out of 10 "sportsmen" that say they are for fenced "hunting" really have some kind of ties with the "shooting preserves". I like to know where people are coming from. No offense meant.. |
|
|
|
Post by spike on Jan 17, 2006 9:05:55 GMT -5
Woody- Don't give more credit than there is. The number of sportsmen who support preserves is only 8 out of 10. (Not all would hunt on one but they support them) The reasons they support is numerous, because they have either visited one and know how great well run facilities can be, they realize if it was all cut out that hunting in general would die a premature death, because sleeping with PETA and HSUS is NEVER good, because of private property rights, and on and on.
Anyone doing their homework would realize the preserves are top notch outfits offering a very much in demand service to sportsmen. The ones who oppose have read or heard something on TV and formed an unsubstantiated opinion. If the preserves were actually "canned hunting" as the opposition believes there would not be a demand greater in Indiana than what the preserves can meet.
Don't you think it is interesting that this website is advertising on the top for preserves. Before you say you have no choice think about this. If so many sportsmen were united against the preserves could they all come up with a couple dollars a piece and pay for a private site ? I bet the advertisemnt above has sent that guy more customers from here than what has posted on here in opposition. Is this site helping or hurting hunting ? You are promoting preserves. That is the whole reason the oppositions argument is weak, all they will do is play on the internet or send an email or two. They will not take any money or effort to support their cause so it is obvious it really does not mean anything to them.
Everyone on talk forums are experts. Experts on CWD, Experts on Deer, Experts on Fair Chase. Oddly enough when the "real" experts show up like the Indiana State Board of Animal Health and speak on CWD it is nothing like the experts on here. When world know experts like Dr James Kroll speak about deer and preserves it is different than here. When the largest hunting organization in the WORLD speak about fair chase and support the preserves it is different than the experts on here. The experts are the reasons most states are protecting the preserve industry. Internet "experts" don't get much credit. It takes facts to support your theories and arguments- they simply don't exist here.
|
|
|
|
Post by jkd on Jan 17, 2006 12:58:06 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]Beware of the wolves with sheep clothing on here. They are only out to protect their own personal agenda, not Hunting or the future of Hunting.[/glow]
You're absolutely right Spike, AKA Rodney Bruce...
People here should beware of folks claiming to be ordinary sports hunters, when they are in fact owner/operators of a canned hunting operation...
|
|
|
|
Post by spike on Jan 17, 2006 15:45:56 GMT -5
JKD- Go to the meeting tomorrow and get educated. I am confident EVERYONE there will be opposed to canned hunting. But I am confident that the majority will be in support of the preserves. Are you man enough to make a prediction ? Your lack of knowledge on the subject will be proven tomorrow. Now that you know there is a difference we will address you as a hunter or poacher, depending whether you learn the terminology or not. You have preserves and canned hunting / you have hunters and poachers. Either seperate the terms or we will loop them togehter.
You could go in again this year and say you are from the DAC and get laughed out of the room again. I think everyone felt sorry for you after they humiliated you. But that is what you get for not truly understanding the subject at hand.
|
|
|
|
Post by jkd on Jan 17, 2006 17:34:44 GMT -5
Rodney,
Not sure what you're trying to say, as your post makes no sense... regardless, you've not responded in any coherent manner to the facts gundude and I posted, so ramble on...
My prediction is that regardless of whether this bill makes it out of committee, it will not make it out of the full house, as was the case last year...
|
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 17, 2006 18:03:29 GMT -5
Woody- Don't give more credit than there is. The number of sportsmen who support preserves is only 8 out of 10. (Not all would hunt on one but they support them) You're not riding that old horse again are you? I've seen WAY too may hunter surveys that were a 180 from what you posted. You mean like reading the court records from the Bellar trial and others? I look at it like people wanting to take a short cut in life to achieve a trophy. Trophies should be earned and not bought. LOL.. you should have seen another ad that they had one here at one time. WE didn't support that one either.. What do they say that is different than the "experts" on here? I don't recall too many folks talking about CWD on HERE yet. [uqoe]When world know experts like Dr James Kroll speak about deer and preserves it is different than here.[/quote] He's paid by several isn't he? Isn't he the one that said government game management was like "communism"? Yeah, he is real believable. I've never cared for some of teh "fair chase" interpretations of the "hunting organizations" including SCI and P & Y.. They determine what is right ONLY for their members, no one else. Sorry, I see more and more states saying no to fenced "hunting" than ones that are saying they are going to protect them. Please don't use the "right to hunt" state constitutional amendments as an out here. |
|
|
|
Post by gundude on Jan 17, 2006 19:46:09 GMT -5
In order to have a full understanding of how High Fence "shooting" works, we need to look at how " Little Bucky" becomes a trophy! Hey there is a lot of work involved here!!!!!!!!!!! I am not going to up load all the pictures, I'll just post the links so everyone knows I am not making this stuff up. This all comes from the deer farmers themselves. Heres a great and very CUTE picture of Bucky as a youngster! Oh now dont you worry! Our little BUCKY will forget all about his human contact when gets a little older! Cute kids in this one too! www.photos.deerfarmer.com/whitetail/WT-150/WT-150.jpg MY MY look how Bucky and his brothers have grown! Look at them eat from that natural growing bucket! www.photos.deerfarmer.com/whitetail/WT-055/WT-055.jpgMY MY MY HOW BUCKY HAS GROWN!!!!!!! LOOKS LIKE HE HAS STARTED A LITTLE FAMILY OF HIS OWN TOO!. Notice how protective BUCKY is as he becomes concerned as the photographer walks up to within 15 yards of him and his younguns!. ( I told you he would become just like a wild animal www.photos.deerfarmer.com/whitetail/WT-140/WT-140.jpgFather and son sharing a wonderful sunset....... precious dont you think? www.photos.deerfarmer.com/whitetail/WT-075/WT-075.jpgNow don't even buy into that stuff the "ANTIS" are telling you. Old Bucky will soon be let out of the barn yard and allowed to roam over a full 80 acres along with 79 other deer. He will be frightened out of his mind at the mere sight or trace sent of a human. A true challenge for a hunter. Yea right!!!!!!!!!  |
|
