yankee
Junior Member
Posts: 27
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Post by yankee on Oct 6, 2006 8:43:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure why anyone thinks this survey was stacked towards bowhunters? There were 10,000 surveys sent out to adults based on license purchases. 20% went to the firearms tag pool, 20% went to the muzzleloader tag pool. Some of these people may bowhunt also but this 4,000 definitely gun hunt.
Another 20% went to lifetime license holders and the remaining 40% went to the archery tag pool. The unknown is how many in this group gun hunt. Single season deer hunters that only bowhunt are pretty rare. I would be surprised if that number is as high as 5%. That is only 300 surveys out of the 6,000 in these two pools and is probably a high number. That leaves 5,700 surveys in these two pools. The bulk of those being two season hunters with a likelihood of several single season gun hunters from the lifetime license pool.
Add that to the 4,000 surveys that definitely gun hunt and possibly bowhunt. What do you get? 9,700 gun and two season deer hunters and no means of estimating that split.
All the DNR did by polling 4,000 people that bought archery licenses was ensure the survey included a representative sample of two season hunters. The survey wasn't stacked towards single season bowhunters at all.How can you stack a random survey in favor of such an infinitesimal group?
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 6, 2006 10:01:40 GMT -5
My FINAL word on this…
I have been told by someone that I highly respect that the data shows that it would not have made a significant difference in the number of bucks taken or the size of the racks of the bucks taken if it had been two bucks or one buck the last 4 years.
IOW - We would be killing just as many bucks and just as old. Fact.
The only significant difference this has made is to move the harvest of those bucks from one season to another.
Since there is very little difference, this is NOT a biological issue. It then defers to “what the majority of hunters want”. Whether we consider the survey as right, wrong or indifferent, it does say that 71% favor keeping the One Buck Rule. The IDNR did not conduct and pay for this survey to disregard the findings.
My belief is that Indiana deer hunters are seeing improvements and have falsely assigned that improvement entirely to the OBR. Data shows that this improvement started 10 years ago. The Pro-OBR side just did a better job of selling their views.
The data and the survey results will be presented to the Natural Resources Advisory Council on October 11th. The Natural Resources Advisory Council will also take public comments at that time. If you have an opinion and want to share it with them that would be a good time to do it.
Using that data, survey and public input the Natural Resources Advisory Council will make a recommendation and the IDNR will present a proposal to the Natural Resources Committee for preliminary adoption in November.
The reason this is going through the Administrative Rules Process now without waiting for the 2006 harvest data is because of the time frame to issue 2007 hunting rules and the Hunting Guides.
Since this is an Administrative Rules Process we will ALL have opportunity to give input, either at the meetings or through emails and letters.
IMO - It would take a major groundswell of deer hunters opposed to the OBR to offset the survey results and to keep the two-buck rule. That is not likely to happen.
A word of encouragement to everyone - Nothing in Indiana hunting rules is ever FINAL. Every rule can be evaluated and possibly changed at each and every Administrative Rules Process.
My encouragement to each and every one of you is to become active. If you do not like something speak up about it. Not just here, but to the IDNR, the Natural Resources Advisory Council and the Natural Resources Committee.
Bullwinkle is right. We were 5 years too late to stop this one. Be vigilant and if something you do not like is proposed be vocal about it. Same thing goes for something that you DO want – be vocal about it THROUGH THE PROPER CHANNELS and not just on Hunting Indiana..
Now let’s go deer hunting……
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Post by birddog on Oct 6, 2006 10:27:35 GMT -5
Woody I must say that I for one agree with what you just posted...Very good!!!!!!!!!!
I'm outta here and going to the woods!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Decatur on Oct 6, 2006 10:35:01 GMT -5
Me too, I'm sick of talking about this. We are accomplishing nothing, but getting mad at each other. I'm done with it. Let's hunt! ;d
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Post by greghopper on Oct 6, 2006 11:59:29 GMT -5
Me Also ....Lets give it a Break Men.....Happy Hunting...Deer,Rabbits,Quail,Ratcoons,....etc.
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Post by mbogo on Oct 6, 2006 12:20:45 GMT -5
Hoyt, your response is exactly why it is so frustrating discussing the issue with "true believers" such as yourself. It is not opinion or secret, privileged information that the buck harvest has been higher the past four years than it was the four prior to that. It is also not opinion that the buck harvest has simply been transferred from archery season to firearms season as the harvest statistics show this as well, but obr supporters will not accept this. Nor will they accept any other far more plausible reason for them happening to see a big buck.
Apparently you do care or else you wouldn't show up to support the obr every time there is a debate.
There is no if to the special interest group part about the debate, it is a fact that the IBA and IDHA are responsible for the OBR. How many times does it have to be explained and how many different people have to explain it before you can accept it? Are you seriously suggesting that special interest groups should manage our deer herd and not the professionals hired by the state to do so?
The original goal of the OBR was to improve the age structure of bucks in our herd by allowing more buck to reach maturity. The DNR and our deer biologists are on record saying that no significant difference occurred in the age structure, meaning that by definition of the goal the trial failed. So it is only an unfounded belief in the obr that is keeping the debate going.
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Oct 6, 2006 12:38:11 GMT -5
Woody I must say that I for one agree with what you just posted...Very good!!!!!!!!!! I'm outta here and going to the woods!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Polaris is loaded up & good to go!
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Post by hoyt1166 on Oct 6, 2006 13:06:58 GMT -5
Hoyt, your response is exactly why it is so frustrating discussing the issue with "true believers" such as yourself. It is not opinion or secret, privileged information that the buck harvest has been higher the past four years than it was the four prior to that. It is also not opinion that the buck harvest has simply been transferred from archery season to firearms season as the harvest statistics show this as well, but obr supporters will not accept this. Nor will they accept any other far more plausible reason for them happening to see a big buck. Apparently you do care or else you wouldn't show up to support the obr every time there is a debate. There is no if to the special interest group part about the debate, it is a fact that the IBA and IDHA are responsible for the OBR. How many times does it have to be explained and how many different people have to explain it before you can accept it? Are you seriously suggesting that special interest groups should manage our deer herd and not the professionals hired by the state to do so? The original goal of the OBR was to improve the age structure of bucks in our herd by allowing more buck to reach maturity. The DNR and our deer biologists are on record saying that no significant difference occurred in the age structure, meaning that by definition of the goal the trial failed. So it is only an unfounded belief in the obr that is keeping the debate going. No, Mbogo, I really don't care one way or another. But much like when the high fence supporters come on here and try to prove that the minority are correct in their thoughts, so too are you trying to do the same. Again, mbogo, I am not a true believer of OBR. I am a true believer of deer hunting and whether there is a one buck rule or a 2 buck rule, I can enjoy the same deer hunting experiences from year to year. However, what I think you find frustrating is that people will call you out for the same reasons you call others out and you don't like it. No, what I think you find frustrating is people not swallowing your line of thinking. So, when someone disagrees with you, you once again, label them as true believers. Whether you'd admit it or not, your line of reasoning is what I'm not buying as much as the arguments you provide for your minority opinion. Make no mistake about it Mbogo. The only thing I care about is deer hunting as a whole. I don't need more than what is currently being offered to be happy. If there were more, that would be fine as well. Regardless of the goal of the OBR, it has the support of the majority. Regardless of how OBR came into being, it has the support of the majority. Apparently, more people are in favor of the OBR than are against it. Apparently, it is the unfounded belief in a 2 buck rule that is keeping the debate going. Those that are for the OBR have already decided. It is the minority that are keeping the debate going. The majority have apparently already spoken. Again, Mbogo, when it comes to special interest groups, I could care less. Are you so sheltered that you don't know that small, special interest groups affect legislation every day in areas much more important than deer hunting? You act surprised that it happened here. However, where you lose your argument is that now it is the majority opinion. Truth be told, what you should be irate with is that the small, special interest groups did a better job than you in selling their beliefs. If you want to be upset with anyone or try to sell a message, sell it to yourself first. You've had since the time OBR came into being to fight against it and try and make a difference. Did you do all you can to try and stop it or did you just stay on this board and air your complaints? Either way, even if you went to your legislators, your arguments didn't sway anyone. Who's fault is that? I'll be honest with you: I hope they go back to a 2 buck rule if only to stop listening to the whining of the minority. As I said, I could care less about 1 or 2 bucks. It would be worth getting rid of the whining to me.
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Post by js2397 on Oct 6, 2006 14:22:58 GMT -5
All the information from the biologist say the OBR has had no effect. I trust these people, as they are educated and understand more than antler score. I would hope the would always look out for what is best for the herd. The annual harvest has increased since the OBR but not enough to make any real difference. There are 71% that support the OBR so they are the majority. There are also 54% that want to have a two-buck limit they are also the majority.
I myself could not care less what decision is made. I try to harvest as many does as possible and shoot the most mature buck that is on the property I hunt. I believe in QDM not to grow huge deer but to have a healthy herd with a balanced age structure. I just want hunting laws based on fact and science not popular opinion.
As far as canned hunting, I am against doing it myself. I also think if a person wants to make money, the government should not get involved unless the business causes some threat to the public. I would not want to put my neighbor’s dairy farm out of business and as long as high fenced hunts are viewed the same way, I think they should be able to operate. Can you imagine living in a country where free enterprise was not allowed and the government had total control over everything? The Chinese can. That is why we are proud to be Americans. Because old Joe Schmo can work hard save some money come up with a business plan and become Joe Millionaire.
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Post by mbogo on Oct 12, 2006 8:00:02 GMT -5
There are only two lines of reasoning to follow, the one where facts lead and the one where beliefs lead. With the complete lack of facts on your side, its a stretch to say much reasoning was involved at all.
Again you claim not to care but you show up to muddy the waters every time the discussion occurrs.
And no I am not sheltered but, I am of the type that thinks condoning something, such as the actions of special interest groups, simply because it will happen anyway is the ultimate in weak logic.
And I have no reason to be upset with the believers, most had nothing to lose to begin with.
The old saying is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, well it is just as true about people, you can lead people to the facts but you can't make them think.
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yankee
Junior Member
Posts: 27
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Post by yankee on Oct 12, 2006 9:01:35 GMT -5
mbogo,
As a new member to this site, are you really a moderator here? I find most of your posts offensive, which is something I wouldn't expect from someone with moderator privileges. Insulting those that don't agree with you is rather childish, wouldn't you agree? At first, I thought you were just making digs at some of your friends. The more I read, the less inclined I am to believe that.
For every stat you can present that insinuates the one buck rule isn't working, I can give you rebuttal statistic to the contrary. Of course, we would both be wasting time, so what is the point? Even the DNR cannot provide accurate measurable data on this issue.
Statistically, for every person that agrees with you on this issue, seven think you are wrong. Might want to consider that before you go demeaning the opposition again.
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 12, 2006 9:28:34 GMT -5
I'm not offended by his posts, Lets see, you have made 5 posts here AND EVERY ONE OF THEM IS ABOUT THE BUCK BAG LIMIT? ?? View most recent posts. Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Today at 10:01am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Yesterday at 5:56am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Oct 10, 2006, 6:04am Re: Practice What You Preach on Oct 10, 2006, 5:42am Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Oct 6, 2006, 9:43am
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Post by js2397 on Oct 12, 2006 9:37:04 GMT -5
You are saying that 12.5% want two bucks but the survey says 54% want two bucks. So statistically for every 23 people that agree with 27 think you are wrong.
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Post by swilk on Oct 12, 2006 9:47:44 GMT -5
I actually agree. I am also a new member of this site and all of my posts have not been about the bag limit. A site moderator is not afforded the luxury of having an opinion any more than a police officer. Create a second profile for personal posts.
My opinion ....... and mine alone.
As for the obr. I personally like it and am happy with the results I am seeing with my own eyes. I am also of the opinion that there are to many "brown and down" hunters but I see no feasible way to change that mentality. I would fully support any "earn a buck" program as well as antler restrictions.
These are my opinions ... They will not change ... and I will not try to change any one else's opinions.
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Post by greghopper on Oct 12, 2006 9:48:12 GMT -5
I'm not offended by his posts, Lets see, you have made 5 posts here AND EVERY ONE OF THEM IS ABOUT THE BUCK BAG LIMIT? ?? View most recent posts. Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Today at 10:01am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Yesterday at 5:56am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Oct 10, 2006, 6:04am Re: Practice What You Preach on Oct 10, 2006, 5:42am Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Oct 6, 2006, 9:43am So whats the Point Mr. Camby....Mbogo is very wrong .....
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 12, 2006 10:06:24 GMT -5
I'm not offended by his posts, Lets see, you have made 5 posts here AND EVERY ONE OF THEM IS ABOUT THE BUCK BAG LIMIT? ?? View most recent posts. Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Today at 10:01am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Yesterday at 5:56am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Oct 10, 2006, 6:04am Re: Practice What You Preach on Oct 10, 2006, 5:42am Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Oct 6, 2006, 9:43am So whats the Point Mr. Camby....Mbogo is very wrong ..... my point Greg ... is that he complains of Mbogo's posts on the OBR and thats all this fella has chatted about. It your opinion that Mbogo is wrong, NOT EVERYONE is of that opinion! 54% of the folks who returned the survey said they wanted a two buck period to compare results with, so I don't see where you all are comming from when you speak of victory! NOW....if the IDNR would do a survey with the buck harvest numbers,... pre and post OBR, how do you think the results would read?
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 12, 2006 10:10:21 GMT -5
I'm not offended by his posts, Lets see, you have made 5 posts here AND EVERY ONE OF THEM IS ABOUT THE BUCK BAG LIMIT? ?? View most recent posts. Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Today at 10:01am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Yesterday at 5:56am Re: Where are all the bucks? on Oct 10, 2006, 6:04am Re: Practice What You Preach on Oct 10, 2006, 5:42am Re: One Buck Rule Survey Summary on Oct 6, 2006, 9:43am So whats the Point Mr. Camby....Mbogo is very wrong ..... mbogo is NOT wrong, AND, he has the same right as anyone else to voice his opinion. No disrespect intended BUT, yankee and swilk, you have a lot of nerve to come here and attack one of our members. Again, no disrespect intended, but mbogo is a respected member, and you two, being new, have not yet gotten to know us, nor us you, and it`s brazen to come in with the attitudes you have. The obr is an emotional issue, and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, but you two, much like greghopper has on a couple of occasions, are crossing a line. Don`t know why you would possibly think a moderator isn`t entitled to voice his opinion, but he most certainly is, and I would hope an apology would be forthcoming.
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Post by swilk on Oct 12, 2006 10:13:09 GMT -5
So whats the Point Mr. Camby....Mbogo is very wrong ..... my point Greg ... is that he complains of Mbogo's posts on the OBR and thats all this fella has chatted about. It your opinion that Mbogo is wrong, NOT EVERYONE is of that opinion! 54% of the folks who returned the survey said they wanted a two buck period to compare results with, so I don't see where you all are comming from when you speak of victory! NOW....if the IDNR would do a survey with the buck harvest numbers,... pre and post OBR, how do you think the results would read? You are kind of taking the poll results out of context. 54% responded favorably to the question of implementing a 2 buck period. 71% responded favorably to keeping the current obr. Confusing at best ... but you cant cite one statistic without mentioning the other. "When asked to express their sentiments toward Indiana’s one-buck-rule as a continuing regulation, 48% of Indiana deer hunters responded “strongly support,” and 23% said “moderately support.” Indiana deer hunters who used only archery gear to deer hunt were especially supportive of one-buck-rule (64% “strongly support”), as well as those deer hunters using archery and muzzleloader gear only (63% “strongly support)." For a total of 71% support.
"When asked if they would support a 3-year pilot-return to the former “two-buck-rule,” 27% said they would “strongly support” the proposal, and another 27% said they “moderately support” it, certainly reflecting confidence in Indiana Department of Natural Resources to do what’s best for the state’s deer herd and hunters, in light of their supportive sentiment toward one-buck-rule." For a total of 54% support.
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Post by swilk on Oct 12, 2006 10:18:49 GMT -5
To my knowledge I did not attack anyone. I expressed my opinion as a member of this site. I did so with respect and without negative emotion.
And ... like I said .... IMO a moderator is not afforded the luxury of having an opinion. IMO a moderator is in a position to oversee the administration and deployment of a particular web site. Not to choose sides.
So ... no apology is needed and none will be coming.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 12, 2006 10:21:59 GMT -5
To my knowledge I did not attack anyone. I expressed my opinion as a member of this site. I did so with respect and without negative emotion. And ... like I said .... IMO a moderator is not afforded the luxury of having an opinion. IMO a moderator is in a position to oversee the administration and deployment of a particular web site. Not to choose sides. So ... no apology is needed and none will be coming. Have it your way then.......and you are wrong that a moderator can`t express his opinion. I truly hope you make friends here and enjoy your time with us, but IMO, attacks like you made at mbogo won`t win you many friends.
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