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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 5, 2005 22:20:05 GMT -5
One more time Joe.. It is ancient history.. There is a new dawn dawning..  . |
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 5, 2005 22:23:15 GMT -5
I look at your banners and what do I see?
Excalibur crossbows:
Crossbows :
crossbows Crossbows..........
yup this is a new "Indiana crossbow forum"
You may win in the long term but you sold out the archer......... the one you claimed to be........
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Post by jdmiller on Aug 5, 2005 23:16:33 GMT -5
Same story.... different state . You would think they could be more creative . Sold out the archer.... crossbows are keeping more former archers in the game. I've been shooting bows since I was ten and I'm nearly 40 now . I'm kinda limited to what I shoot now....a crossbow . When you get in those situations and it means sitting out the season or picking up a crossbow. What choice would you make ?
On the other side of the coin my daughter hasnt grew into a compound with sufficient draw weight to hunt with but she can shoot a crossbow very well . Too bad she cant use one legally . I bet theres a lot of dads out there that would like the same thing . I would even say if more of the youth were introduced to crossbows they would probably switch to compounds , recurves or longbows in time . Too bad some people dont feel that way and want to keep them from using it .
While I'm thinking about it ..... instead of bickering over something like this .... why not focus on the things we could do to promote hunting in general . Declining hunter numbers are all the states problems . If a crossbow will recruit a few more .... so be it .
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Post by jackryan on Aug 6, 2005 0:12:39 GMT -5
Same story.... different state . You would think they could be more creative . Sold out the archer.... crossbows are keeping more former archers in the game. I've been shooting bows since I was ten and I'm nearly 40 now . I'm kinda limited to what I shoot now....a crossbow . When you get in those situations and it means sitting out the season or picking up a crossbow. What choice would you make ? On the other side of the coin my daughter hasnt grew into a compound with sufficient draw weight to hunt with but she can shoot a crossbow very well . Too bad she cant use one legally . I bet theres a lot of dads out there that would like the same thing . I would even say if more of the youth were introduced to crossbows they would probably switch to compounds , recurves or longbows in time . Too bad some people dont feel that way and want to keep them from using it . While I'm thinking about it ..... instead of bickering over something like this .... why not focus on the things we could do to promote hunting in general . Declining hunter numbers are all the states problems . If a crossbow will recruit a few more .... so be it . Good idea on doing something to promote hunting instead of argueing over nonexistent problems. Archers who are physically incapable of using a bow and arrow as well as a few who just claim to be have the use of crossbows readily available for little more than the asking in Indiana. And your daughter can legally use a crossbow as easily as any other weapon, during the season, game, and dates assigned for use of that weapon. |
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 6, 2005 5:47:41 GMT -5
I agree with you to a certian degree Woody, as for the OBR "paving" the way! But I am not sure it's a automatic for the crossbow. The OBR, if it gains permenant status will pave the way for additional changes but if could be in the form of a early Muzzleloader session, a early youth only firearms session or it could be crossbows. The writing is on the wall.....all you have to do is look at what other OBR states are doing.....why would Indiana do it any different? I do support a state wide OBR if it is offset by adding additional hunting opportunities....Just like JB said..... Why would we want to stay with the "traditional" way?  ?? |
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 6, 2005 8:24:02 GMT -5
I look at your banners and what do I see? Excalibur crossbows: Crossbows : crossbows Crossbows.......... yup this is a new "Indiana crossbow forum" You may win in the long term but you sold out the archer......... the one you claimed to be........ Do you actually think that I have signed up sponsors for this site? I wish...Maybe when the main page is up and running..... I have no control over the ads running across the top. That is part of the deal when I picked up this forum from Pro-boards. The ads are unobtrusive so I was OK with that. If they had been Pop-Ups I would have looked elsewhere. Joe, Do you know waht those ads key on? Google runs a bot every 10 minutes or so on these boards. Whatever is being discussed the most it will run those type of ads on top of the page. If it was muzzleloaders, it would run muzzleloader ads. Hunting? It will run hunting ads. Crossbows? it will run crossbows. So everytime you and I post about crossbows the Googlebot will think here are some crosbow customers here and run crossbow ads.. The crossbow manufacturers thank you...  |
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 6, 2005 10:46:50 GMT -5
I agree with you to a certian degree Woody, as for the OBR "paving" the way! But I am not sure it's a automatic for the crossbow. The OBR, if it gains permenant status will pave the way for additional changes but if could be in the form of a early Muzzleloader session, a early youth only firearms session or it could be crossbows. The writing is on the wall.....all you have to do is look at what other OBR states are doing.....why would Indiana do it any different? I do support a state wide OBR if it is offset by adding additional hunting opportunities....Just like JB said..... Why would we want to stay with the "traditional" way? ?? Camby, You could be right. Archers are small potatoes when it comes to controlling the herd. Even with the new early archery antlerless permit rule. You and C.J. Winand are thinking alike in that respect.. He said in answer to an anti-crossbow hypothesis from bowhunters...... " Allowing crossbows will reduce the length of the archery-only seasons or restrict the number of deer a hunter can harvest.Although this is a valid concern, no state has ever reduced or cut back on the total days a bow hunter can hunt or the deer season limit because of crossbows. In fact, with burgeoning deer populations the reverse has occurred in many of the states that currently allow crossbows. Will the success rate increase for states consider making crossbows legal? Most definitely, and if all bowhunters don’t start taking more deer, specifically more antlerless deer, the state DNR's will have no other option but to bring firearms into the archery season.
Many states are already starting to do this with early season muzzleloader seasons. More radical is to extend the firearm season into the archery seasons.It must be remembered that gun hunters are the ones who significantly manage our deer herds. Excluding some urban areas, our firearm friends are the real management tools that control deer populations. And although success rates for compound bow hunters have increased throughout the years, like it or not, state deer biologists will always depend on firearm hunters to control burgeoning deer populations. In areas where firearms are not allowed, data suggests that crossbow hunters have done nothing but help the existing deer herd." WW - So it might boil down to will we have another archery hunting tool that goes THUMP or a firearm that goes BOOM in the early archery season? Unintended consequences again. People need to look ahead because for every action there is a reaction.. |
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Post by jdmiller on Aug 6, 2005 12:36:17 GMT -5
Guys ,
I'm a probably considered a outsider on this site with me living in Kentucky . I'll admit I really dont know how your seasons our structured and I wont comment on the politics involved . However as Woody and Camby stated in a nutshell ... if its not crossbows it will be something else . In Kentucky we already have early modern firearm for youth and muzzleloader seasons in October . Our regular modern firearms season has been extended . These weapons have already invaded the general archery season without anyone debating their justification . This has been done with no ill effects on game populations or displacement of our bowhunters .
How anyone figures crossbows will have more effect than a form of firearms is beyond me . On average probably more deer are killed on one weekend of modern firearms than throughout the entire archery season that stretches from Sept. 3- Jan. 16 . In Kentucky the archers are just not killing enough deer...... the addition of crossbows were just another weapon choice and a aid to increase harvest . In the bigger picture archery(bows and crossbows) is not much of a management tool and their harvest are not a drop in the bucket as compared to firearms .
I strongly believe that if crossbows are not a accepted choice throughout archery season than you will force the game departments hand in looking at other options . There are a lot bigger lobbiest out there than crossbowers and traditional archery users . Insurance companies and agriculture related industries will have their opinion considered too. We have already had discussion on here about shooting deer for crop damage and the department issuing more permits to farmers to do this. Would it not be perceived that more leniant methods of hunting will follow .
As a whole traditional archery users and crossbow users are the minority when compared to those that participate with firearms . To keep a constant controversy brewing between these two groups is not helping anyone and its just letting the door be opened for the larger group to expand their seasons .Crossbows should never be conceived as the end of hunting as we know it . Statistics , surveys and data from other states prove this . The benefits of recruitment and retention far outweigh the negetives if there are any . The woods will not be overrun with crossbowers and nobody is forcing anyone to choose it. The crossbow is just another weapon or tool of choice that may be the right choice for that particular individual .
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Post by kevin1 on Aug 6, 2005 12:36:42 GMT -5
I look at your banners and what do I see? Excalibur crossbows: Crossbows : crossbows Crossbows.......... yup this is a new "Indiana crossbow forum" You may win in the long term but you sold out the archer......... the one you claimed to be........ Do you actually think that I have signed up sponsors for this site? I wish...Maybe when the main page is up and running..... I have no control over the ads running across the top. That is part of the deal when I picked up this forum from Pro-boards. The ads are unobtrusive so I was OK with that. If they had been Pop-Ups I would have looked elsewhere. Joe, Do you know waht those ads key on? Google runs a bot every 10 minutes or so on these boards. Whatever is being discussed the most it will run those type of ads on top of the page. If it was muzzleloaders, it would run muzzleloader ads. Hunting? It will run hunting ads. Crossbows? it will run crossbows. So everytime you and I post about crossbows the Googlebot will think here are some crosbow customers here and run crossbow ads.. The crossbow manufacturers thank you... Bwa hahahahaha !!! I take back what I said in that other thread , JB , you were right , ignorance is indeed bliss ! ;D  hahahahaha !! |
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 6, 2005 12:53:13 GMT -5
Guys , I'm a probably considered a outsider on this site with me living in Kentucky . I'll admit I really dont know how your seasons our structured and I wont comment on the politics involved . However as Woody and Camby stated in a nutshell ... if its not crossbows it will be something else . In Kentucky we already have early modern firearm for youth and muzzleloader seasons in October . Our regular modern firearms season has been extended . These weapons have already invaded the general archery season without anyone debating their justification . This has been done with no ill effects on game populations or displacement of our bowhunters . How anyone figures crossbows will have more effect than a form of firearms is beyond me . On average probably more deer are killed on one weekend of modern firearms than throughout the entire archery season that stretches from Sept. 3- Jan. 16 . In Kentucky the archers are just not killing enough deer...... the addition of crossbows were just another weapon choice and a aid to increase harvest . In the bigger picture archery(bows and crossbows) is not much of a management tool and their harvest are not a drop in the bucket as compared to firearms . I strongly believe that if crossbows are not a accepted choice throughout archery season than you will force the game departments hand in looking at other options . There are a lot bigger lobbiest out there than crossbowers and traditional archery users . Insurance companies and agriculture related industries will have their opinion considered too. We have already had discussion on here about shooting deer for crop damage and the department issuing more permits to farmers to do this. Would it not be perceived that more leniant methods of hunting will follow . As a whole traditional archery users and crossbow users are the minority when compared to those that participate with firearms . To keep a constant controversy brewing between these two groups is not helping anyone and its just letting the door be opened for the larger group to expand their seasons .Crossbows should never be conceived as the end of hunting as we know it . Statistics , surveys and data from other states prove this . The benefits of recruitment and retention far outweigh the negetives if there are any . The woods will not be overrun with crossbowers and nobody is forcing anyone to choose it. The crossbow is just another weapon or tool of choice that may be the right choice for that particular individual . Very well said , sir.. The deer herd WILL be controlled one way or the other..That is a "fact"... Crossbow legalization in early archery will help to stave off the encroachment of firearms into that season. It utterly amazes me that some people are so blinded by their hatred of the crossbow that they can not see this.. |
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 6, 2005 16:31:33 GMT -5
Your blinded by your hatred of conventional archery Woody, you folks havwe a season but it doesn't satisfy you. You were offered another season in return for a license and you refused.
Play your game and we will see where you end up. Every State you campaign in we find ways to stave off your attack on archery in Indiana.
What is funny is how you refuse to answer the simple question posed:
Was the crossbow for non handicapped folks backdoored against the wishes of the "sportsmen" and "legislature" who participated in the process?
No long drawn out excuses......... I want your honest comment.
a simple yes or no..........
Woody be a man and answer the question.
Would Indiana have a season for the non handicapped if not for back door antics?
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Post by jackryan on Aug 6, 2005 17:13:47 GMT -5
No, I'm not "half correct". I know what I said. It is not a threat.. it is a promise that I will seek to have crossbows legalized for all hunters in all of archery season irregardless of what the OBR does. It can stay or go way that will not affect how I will campaign. However you paved the way for it to be easier. Ever hear of "unintended consequences"?? No suprise there. Everybody knew it when you where whining for a chance, any chance to hunt deer with even though you already could. You had it with a handicap permit even though you repeatedly claim modern compound bows are no more difficult than a crossboe. Then you got it for everybody in the late archery season but that wasn't enough. All you ever wanted and just what every other person who wants to hunt early bow and arrow season but doesn't want to use a bow and arrow wants is to use what ever they want in early archery. If they let the crossbow whiners what possible arguement could they use to not let muzzle loaders? Shotgunners? Pistols, rifles? What ever? Bow season is over then, thanks Woody. Thanks to all the whining little cry babies. Slobs year round. Why even have a season just issue "kill permits" Jan 1 that are good through the year. One deer is one deer, one buck is one buck. |
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Post by kevin1 on Aug 6, 2005 18:46:57 GMT -5
Would you prefer the Orange Army to the crossbow in EA , Jack ? I know you'd prefer neither , but if it came down to one or the other what would Jack choose ? |
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Post by jackryan on Aug 6, 2005 19:26:35 GMT -5
Would you prefer the Orange Army to the crossbow in EA , Jack ? I know you'd prefer neither , but if it came down to one or the other what would Jack choose ? They are the same thing. Crossbows are just an excuse for them to insert their covert advance scouts. |
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 6, 2005 20:58:52 GMT -5
Your blinded by your hatred of conventional archery Woody, you folks havwe a season but it doesn't satisfy you. You were offered another season in return for a license and you refused. WW - No, I don't have a hatred for archery and you know that. Please do not degrade this debate by attempting to assign a strawman to me. I've been an archer and an archery hunter since 1968. I've promoted archery and archery hunting ALL of those years and still do. The "season" for the crossbowers is tail end Joe. We are hunting with archery equipment that is no more efficient than waht you call "conventional archery" (whatever that is) and we get the crumbs. WW - It's not a game and it is not "an attack on archery", Joe. I'm all for increasing hunter opportunity. I would think that the position that you are in that would be one of your goals too. WW - Ancient history, Joe. Everyone knows the shenigans that was conducted back then. What does that have to do with now or the future? Joe, I'm a man whether I answer the question or not.. But here goes. Try to remember it this time as I wont repeat it again and again.. There is no way of knowing, by you or by me, whether or not there would be a crossbow season today if that had not have happened then. 8 years is a long, long time when dealing with the IDNR. Many, many changes have happened in 8 years. I do know that the fiasco back then steeled the IDNR against any further consideration of any legalizing of crossbows. It put the double whammy on it.. at least for the last two administrations.. Would we have a crossbow season today if that had not happened? One only has to look back 8 years ago and see that Georgia, Alabama, Tennesee, Virginia did not have a crossbow season then either. They do now. Plus all the states that have liberalized and expanded crossbow useage in that time period. Things are changing Joe. Change or get left behind. Would Indiana had done the same and legalized a season for crossbows if they had not got burned back 8 years ago? I don't know for sure and furthermore neither do you.Re-read what C.J. wrote and do some very serious thinking about what the consquences could be if crossbows are not legalized in archery season. Look at what the IDNR is trying to do in getting the herd back under control. If crossbows aren't allowed to help do that in early archery my best guess is the same thing that C. J. wrote... here come the guns... in one form or another. Youth and muzzleloaders first then.... THUMP or BOOM.. What is your choice?? |
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Post by Indyhunter on Aug 6, 2005 22:11:40 GMT -5
I remember 'someone' constantly stating something to the affect of "tradition isn't working, times are changing, the future will be different, get used to it" when it came to the OBR. This particular phrase seems to be rather appropriate in this discussion also.
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Post by jdmiller on Aug 7, 2005 0:55:22 GMT -5
You know whats kinda ironic about the crossbow debate? Most crossbowers came from the ranks of bowhunters . I dont know a single person that is using a crossbow now that didnt hunt with bow to begin with including myself .
Makes you wonder if all the feuding about crossbows has caused more damage within their own ranks. Fact is I'm looking at my Mathews Legacy and my Parker crossbow hanging on the same rack . I guess I will always consider myself a bowhunter regardless of what others say. However I used to be proud of the fact that bowhunters were considered to be symbols of conservation and stewards of the resources . Now I wonder if thats so. Constant arguing about a weapon choice that is statistically equal in harvest to other methods of archery and has the benefit to expose all age groups to our sport while possibly retaining existing bowhunters cant be perceived that terrible .
I guess I may never understand this issue . Sportsmen
fighting sportsmen . I'm sure the anti-hunting groups are loving this . Guys theres lot bigger problems than trying to keep a group of crossbowers out of the general archery season . All were doing is giving those that would like nothing better than stop all hunting more of a reason . As history has shown a devided group has never accomplished very much and there will be a time that we must stand together .
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Post by steiny on Aug 7, 2005 19:42:23 GMT -5
The beauty of early archery season in it's present form, is the fact that there is not a hunter behind every tree, you can hunt relatively undisturbed deer, and you can find some seclusion and solitude.
Introduce another "easier to use" weapon such as a crossbow or firearm, and you've suddenly added a bunch of hunters in the woods, and screwed up what most of us enjoy most about the early archery season.
If you want to hunt that early season, there is plenty of opportunity, and always has been. Just pick up a bow and do it.
If we really need to kill more does (which I don't agree with), then issue $5 or $10 doe tags to the gun hunters, and you'll see a big increase in doe harvest.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 7, 2005 20:25:42 GMT -5
The beauty of early archery season in it's present form, is the fact that there is not a hunter behind every tree, you can hunt relatively undisturbed deer, and you can find some seclusion and solitude. WW - Should we have a cut off on how many bowhunters are allowed in the woods then? If bowhunters use the "The woods will be too crowded" excuse what do they say if 50,000 people did what you say later in the post and "Just pick up a bow and do it"? Sorry Steiny, but that sounds like a very selfish reason to me.. WW - Georgia who has double our number in hunters added 9,300 archery hunters the first year. BUT - 2,400 of those were vertical bowhunters. It seems that mom and the kids joined dad in the deer woods. Each toting thier own choice in archery gear. Believe it or not, we NEED more archery hunters. The ARFS are after us and numbers will count. WW- To that I'll agree. The $24 "doe" tag is cost prohibitive to a lot of hunters. Legalize crossbows and drop the tag prices for antlerlesss and we have two winners. Especially in the urban areas where crossbow have proven themselves in other states.... |
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Post by jbwhttail on Aug 7, 2005 21:08:10 GMT -5
Deleted for personal attacks and profanity (name calling)
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??
hahahahaha !!