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Post by jjas on Oct 29, 2018 10:13:11 GMT -5
And again the argument that the third party candidate who seems to support most of our same opinions about government won't get our vote because they're not going to get enough other peoples' votes to "win". Should we toss our bows in the trash and take up golf instead because there are more golfers than bowhunters? Eat only white bread because it's so much more popular than whole wheat? The Republican Party was a minority party prior to the 1860 election. Free choice is intended to work that way. It implies that if a better alternative is offered there will be enough people who choose it that it will BECOME a choice popular enough to be a viable contender in the marketplace, even if it's not pre-sold before the market even opens. The Libertarian Party has been around for almost fifty years and has increased in popularity almost every election cycle. It has always had a platform of lower taxes, less government overreach into our lives, and less entanglement in foreign wars. A return to a constitutional government is also a strong plank in their platform as is unwavering support of the Second Amendment, as written. Really guys, it's OK to vote your conscience even if "all the other guys" are going with the "lesser of two weevils" 8^) While I understand your point, the reality is that Democrats and Republicans run the show. So even if an independent gets in, they will have little political influence unless there happens to be a vote that is to be decided by that one vote. And even though that Independent will be courted by both sides of the aisle, many times they vote with the Republicans as most Independent voters tend to be more conservative. I personally think that if you really want an Independent to gain any traction they should register as Republicans and take on "do nothing" incumbents in the primary. But for that to happen, voters are going to have to register as Republicans so they can vote for those candidates in the primaries. Like it or not, if an incumbent isn't beaten in the primary, history shows that they tend to win re-election in the fall.
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Post by Russ Koon on Oct 29, 2018 12:22:39 GMT -5
jjas, I agree that the pat you describe is another way to gain the same truly conservative people in office, and it has certainly been used in the past and still is. Ron Paul was a known Libertarian who ran as a Republican in Texas and made it clear that he was still a Libertarian while running and winning as a Republican. His son Rand, with many of the same views as his dad, chose to run as a Republican in KY and also made his Libertarian leanings quite clear both during the election and since in his senate service.
Several others have chosen that path, or have taken on more libertarian leanings after being elected as Republicans. Newt Gingrich comes to mind. I don't remember him ever actually running as a Libertarian for any office, but many of his issue positions were very similar to those of the Libertarian Party, and he made no secret of that fact.
But while that path does gain the desired result of people in office with libertarian views, it doesn't do as much to advance the Libertarian Party as being the party choice to vote for if you're looking to put people with those views in office. Often it's a timing matter. The choice by the party to support a candidate with libertarian views has to be made much earlier in the election cycle, before the primaries in most cases, and most of us aren't that interested in politics until it's more in the news and the fall elections are closer.
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Post by jjas on Oct 29, 2018 12:47:50 GMT -5
Russ Koon
Hence the reason third party candidates (or major party challengers) rarely win, while do nothing incumbents continue to win re-election over and over and over and over....
We are a lazy electorate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:37:44 GMT -5
And again the argument that the third party candidate who seems to support most of our same opinions about government won't get our vote because they're not going to get enough other peoples' votes to "win". Should we toss our bows in the trash and take up golf instead because there are more golfers than bowhunters? Eat only white bread because it's so much more popular than whole wheat? The Republican Party was a minority party prior to the 1860 election. Free choice is intended to work that way. It implies that if a better alternative is offered there will be enough people who choose it that it will BECOME a choice popular enough to be a viable contender in the marketplace, even if it's not pre-sold before the market even opens. The Libertarian Party has been around for almost fifty years and has increased in popularity almost every election cycle. It has always had a platform of lower taxes, less government overreach into our lives, and less entanglement in foreign wars. A return to a constitutional government is also a strong plank in their platform as is unwavering support of the Second Amendment, as written. Really guys, it's OK to vote your conscience even if "all the other guys" are going with the "lesser of two weevils" 8^) I already value your opinion Russ, you show a great deal of thought and reason when you post. I just couldn`t cast my ballot for the Libertarian however, simply because, those most inclined to vote for that party would most typically be Republicans, and every vote not cast for a Republican, that is instead cast for a candidate who simply will not win, is the same as a vote for a demon-crat. I can never, ever vote for a demon-crat. Their party is pure evil.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 14:47:53 GMT -5
Russ Koon Hence the reason third party candidates (or major party challengers) rarely win, while do nothing incumbents continue to win re-election over and over and over and over.... We are a lazy electorate. I grind my teeth when I hear someone say that they`re just not a political person, or whatever variation of that they may use. In today`s world especially, everything is politicized, and if you care about even just one thing, how can you not be into politics? Nevermind that apathy is literally killing the United States. Too many people believe we are a democracy, and have no clue that we`re a constitutional republic, or even what that means. Too many are pacified so long as they can play their video games or watch the Kardashians, and don`t want to be bothered with voting, much less paying attention to what their elected employees are doing and holding them accountable to adhere to the United States Constitution. Many don`t appreciate the beauty of the Electoral College and want to do away with it and elect the President with the popular vote too, not grasping that without the Electoral College, the most populous states, generally extremely liberal states, would elect the president. How many have read the Federalist Papers? These are brilliant and fascinating, and give tremendous insight into the minds of the men who put together this wonderful, shining city on a hill. We are losing this great nation, to a great extent due to moral decay, but just a much from an overwhelming apathy that will surely sink us if we don`t get good, decent people to become fully involved, all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 15:51:04 GMT -5
And again the argument that the third party candidate who seems to support most of our same opinions about government won't get our vote because they're not going to get enough other peoples' votes to "win". Should we toss our bows in the trash and take up golf instead because there are more golfers than bowhunters? Eat only white bread because it's so much more popular than whole wheat? The Republican Party was a minority party prior to the 1860 election. Free choice is intended to work that way. It implies that if a better alternative is offered there will be enough people who choose it that it will BECOME a choice popular enough to be a viable contender in the marketplace, even if it's not pre-sold before the market even opens. The Libertarian Party has been around for almost fifty years and has increased in popularity almost every election cycle. It has always had a platform of lower taxes, less government overreach into our lives, and less entanglement in foreign wars. A return to a constitutional government is also a strong plank in their platform as is unwavering support of the Second Amendment, as written. Really guys, it's OK to vote your conscience even if "all the other guys" are going with the "lesser of two weevils" 8^) I get what you're saying but it comes down to being idealistic vs realistic. Most people that align with both Braun and the libertarian will vote for the republican, so if I don't vote republican I've aided Donnelly. If this was less of a close race, or it wasn't as important of an election cycle I would consider Libertarian. And yes I know this is a self defeating prophecy but until we get to the point where more people are willing to vote 3rd party it's just not viable. Unless in the interim we want a bunch of Dems.
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Post by ironjaw on Oct 29, 2018 18:14:28 GMT -5
Braun gets my vote this time around, only for the reason of countering a vote for obama joe.
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Post by Russ Koon on Oct 29, 2018 19:31:14 GMT -5
OK, I just changed my mind. I also got one of the fliers the Dem's put out a few days ago, praising Lucy Brenton as the low-tax candidate, and never mentioning Donnely. I thought it was a curious tactic, but it does show the desperation of the Dem's, and makes it clear that THEY think it's going to be a tight race. You're right, that is the more important consideration in the race. I sometimes forget that the candidate who would be a shoo-in in our district may have a lot of strength in other areas of the state.
If the Dem's are using Lucy's candidacy to tip the scales to Joe, I'd REALLY feel sick if we all lost in a squeaker. The odds of my vote being the one that made the difference is so slim, it would be easy to ignore, but it DOES exist. I've postponed my support for the Libertarian candidate because of a tight race before, and it looks like I'll do so again this time. Sorry, Lucy, maybe next time.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 29, 2018 19:58:42 GMT -5
OK, I just changed my mind. I also got one of the fliers the Dem's put out a few days ago, praising Lucy Brenton as the low-tax candidate, and never mentioning Donnely. I thought it was a curious tactic, but it does show the desperation of the Dem's, and makes it clear that THEY think it's going to be a tight race. You're right, that is the more important consideration in the race. I sometimes forget that the candidate who would be a shoo-in in our district may have a lot of strength in other areas of the state. If the Dem's are using Lucy's candidacy to tip the scales to Joe, I'd REALLY feel sick if we all lost in a squeaker. The odds of my vote being the one that made the difference is so slim, it would be easy to ignore, but it DOES exist. I've postponed my support for the Libertarian candidate because of a tight race before, and it looks like I'll do so again this time. Sorry, Lucy, maybe next time. I understand his campaign pulled the same truck when he ran for congress.. Third parties are pretty well spoilers for the Republicans.. Remember Ross Perot ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 18:03:46 GMT -5
Another debate tonight, just starting between Braun, Donnelly and the Libertarian candidate. Mot point since I`ve already voted and voted straight ticket. But you just know the demon-crat is in trouble and knows it when he actually channeled Ronald Reagan during a campaign ad. Pathetic.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 18:10:37 GMT -5
I`m with Russ in large part on the support of the Libertarian candidate. When she just said her party would do everything to keep our rights from being restrained, that`s what it`s supposed to be about. The Constitution is clearly not to restrain the rights of the people, but instead to restrain the government, and keep them from attacking our constitutionally protected rights. It`s a pity there`s o little support for the Libertarian party.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 18:24:23 GMT -5
Except the Libertarian candidate just said that of course contraceptives out to be available and affordable...really? So the Libertarian think government ought to enact price controls and not allow the market to dictate prices and cost? Sounds like demon-crats to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 18:46:43 GMT -5
Donnelly as you would expect, but eben the Libertarian candidate, speaking to hunger in America, are saying the government must be involved. It is NOT the proper role of government to be involved in charitable. Government is the god of liberals, but there are a great many Christian charitable organizations who provide for those who are suffering need. We have GOT to finally put government in it`s place, and that place is NOT to provide for Americans.
“…[T]he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government.” -James Madison
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Post by duff on Oct 31, 2018 4:57:38 GMT -5
I was doing some internet searches on Braun. One source said he was a Democrat most of his life. Maybe he changed or maybe it was fake news...I don't know. I did my investigation as far as I could and still struggling on this one. I don't have a good feel on him but will not vote for Joe.
My vote is Lucy for now.
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Post by streamangler on Oct 31, 2018 5:16:33 GMT -5
Except the Libertarian candidate just said that of course contraceptives out to be available and affordable...really? So the Libertarian think government ought to enact price controls and not allow the market to dictate prices and cost? Sounds like demon-crats to me. Did the candidate actually call for price controls? Or is that your interpretation of the statement? Allowing for a punch bowl of condoms in a high school nurse's office is much different than free birth control pills for all. Maybe the intent was to remove the ridiculous barriers preventing access to contraception as govt tries to dictate morality. I didn't hear this statement so please provide additional context. As of this morning, I will probably just leave that option blank.
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Post by jjas on Oct 31, 2018 7:46:33 GMT -5
With the Braun/Donnelly race tight, those who consider themselves conservatives (but are looking @ voting for Brenton) might want to revisit that decision.
If she pulls the 5% of voters that she's polling @ right now, (and with this race a dead heat), Donnelly may very well pull this win out.
In the end, it's your voice, your choice but voting for someone who has ZERO chance of winning this race may very well mean Donnelly represents Indiana for another 6 years.
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Post by jman46151 on Oct 31, 2018 8:22:37 GMT -5
I was doing some internet searches on Braun. One source said he was a Democrat most of his life. Maybe he changed or maybe it was fake news...I don't know. I did my investigation as far as I could and still struggling on this one. I don't have a good feel on him but will not vote for Joe. My vote is Lucy for now. It's my understanding that this comes from the fact that for many years he has chosen to vote on the democrat ballot in the primaries. In Indiana you are not forced to choose a party but it is assumed your party affiliation aligns with which party's ballot you vote on.
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Post by swilk on Oct 31, 2018 8:41:55 GMT -5
I cant vote for a third party because not enough other people will and Ill just be wasting my vote and helping the Democrats...Sort of reminds me of the "if I dont kill it my neighbors will" argument.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2018 9:10:02 GMT -5
I cant vote for a third party because not enough other people will and Ill just be wasting my vote and helping the Democrats...Sort of reminds me of the "if I dont kill it my neighbors will" argument. I get what you're saying but it's a question of idealism vs reality. Reality says she hasn't promoted herself enough, most people dont know who she is, and shes projected in the low single digits. Reality says if you vote for her and you're a Republican it's just taking a vote from braun. However I will agree with your statement in an idealistic sense, but at this time it's just not feasible. If this were a less tight race or a less important election cycle I would more than likely vote for the libertarian.
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Post by swilk on Oct 31, 2018 9:18:09 GMT -5
I was just speaking in general .... seems that is what I hear in every election when it comes to third party candidates. I doubt I will vote for her but its mostly because she has said a few things I dont really like and not because I feel it would be wasting my vote.
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