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Post by oldhoyt on Dec 30, 2015 7:58:24 GMT -5
I shot a T/C Renegade for many years, using loose Pyrodex RS and #11 cap ignition. Just pour the powder down the barrel, push the bullet down until it contacts the powder, then compress firmly (Pyrodex likes to be compressed). Ignition was flawless and instantaneous, and could not be made "better" by a 209 conversion. I think that guys see this as a way to fix problems they bring on themselves by not cleaning the gun properly.
The only problems I ever had with ignition were due to operator error. When I started muzzleloading, I cleaned with solvents and oiled the bore lighlty. The gun would then stand in the cabinet until the season. Then I would fire a few caps to "clear the bolster of oil", then load and fire. Problem with this was if the gun was not fired fairly quickly, oil that was still in the bore fouled the charge. Also, fouling from the caps themselves can draw moisture from the air. So, the lesson here is prepare your gun for hunting by loading on a clean, DRY bore. No need to fire a few caps, as there's nothing in that bore. I always paid special attention to flushing the bore with the nipple in, and then again with the nipple removed, to make sure no residue remained.
I tried converting to a musket nipple and musket caps. They are quite a bit bigger so I figured they couldn't hurt. Got mostly hang-fires with them. I have no idea what the issue was. Went back to standard nipple and #11 caps with no problems.
Wet weather can cause problems. When hunting in wet weather, I would check the gun to make sure it would go off by removing the nipple and visually inspecting the bolster. You can normally see a few grains of powder that find their way into the bolster when the gun is loaded. If the bolster is dry the gun will fire. A little bees wax on the nipple threads can help pprevent water from getting into the bolster.
Lastly, if you take a shot at game, the first thing you must do before anything else is reload the gun. This is true even if you see the animal drop "stone dead". Quite a few such critters have suddenly come back to life and run off while the hunter watches with an unloaded gun in his hands. So, now you have a gun loaded on a fouled bore. Usually no problem, and the gun should go off just fine during the rest of the day. But, don't let that charge stay in over night. The fouling will pull moisture from the air and who knows what will happen. Clear the gun, clean it, dry it and reload before the next hunt.
This got longer than intended but maybe it will prevent someone from having to learn "the hard way".
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Dec 30, 2015 10:10:34 GMT -5
209 is a better design even if one is not having problems. It's common to get #11 caps that do not have a confluent coating. Misfires are much more common with #11.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 30, 2015 10:42:12 GMT -5
I shot a T/C Renegade for many years, using loose Pyrodex RS and #11 cap ignition. Just pour the powder down the barrel, push the bullet down until it contacts the powder, then compress firmly (Pyrodex likes to be compressed). Ignition was flawless and instantaneous, and could not be made "better" by a 209 conversion. I think that guys see this as a way to fix problems they bring on themselves by not cleaning the gun properly. The only problems I ever had with ignition were due to operator error. When I started muzzleloading, I cleaned with solvents and oiled the bore lighlty. The gun would then stand in the cabinet until the season. Then I would fire a few caps to "clear the bolster of oil", then load and fire. Problem with this was if the gun was not fired fairly quickly, oil that was still in the bore fouled the charge. Also, fouling from the caps themselves can draw moisture from the air. So, the lesson here is prepare your gun for hunting by loading on a clean, DRY bore. No need to fire a few caps, as there's nothing in that bore. I always paid special attention to flushing the bore with the nipple in, and then again with the nipple removed, to make sure no residue remained. I tried converting to a musket nipple and musket caps. They are quite a bit bigger so I figured they couldn't hurt. Got mostly hang-fires with them. I have no idea what the issue was. Went back to standard nipple and #11 caps with no problems. Wet weather can cause problems. When hunting in wet weather, I would check the gun to make sure it would go off by removing the nipple and visually inspecting the bolster. You can normally see a few grains of powder that find their way into the bolster when the gun is loaded. If the bolster is dry the gun will fire. A little bees wax on the nipple threads can help pprevent water from getting into the bolster. Lastly, if you take a shot at game, the first thing you must do before anything else is reload the gun. This is true even if you see the animal drop "stone dead". Quite a few such critters have suddenly come back to life and run off while the hunter watches with an unloaded gun in his hands. So, now you have a gun loaded on a fouled bore. Usually no problem, and the gun should go off just fine during the rest of the day. But, don't let that charge stay in over night. The fouling will pull moisture from the air and who knows what will happen. Clear the gun, clean it, dry it and reload before the next hunt. This got longer than intended but maybe it will prevent someone from having to learn "the hard way". Well stated.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 30, 2015 10:43:11 GMT -5
209 is a better design even if one is not having problems. It's common to get #11 caps that do not have a confluent coating. Misfires are much more common with #11. If you can find #10, use them. They fit tighter on the nipple.
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Post by omegahunter on Dec 30, 2015 10:46:58 GMT -5
Not sure if I want to sell or trade but would like to test the waters. What would you guys out there be willing to pay for one of these. Got my Renegade several years back with a pristine bore and only a small amount of pitting on the top of the barrel where someone had a T/C scope mount on it. Paid $125 for it and now it wears open sights and occasionally comes out to play. However, I am not 100% traditional and it shoots Triple Seven powder and saboted .430 XTP's better than I can keep the open sights aligned. Last time it helped gather meat was 3 years ago.
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Post by stevein on Dec 30, 2015 10:47:25 GMT -5
I can get my flintlock to go off and you all need a 209 to set off a caplock LOL That is funny. The biggest problem with TC ignition is the breech. It is a Patent Breech which means it is smaller than the bore. Unless you have a smaller jag or brush you really can't get all the way down to the flash channel. If you are shooting a 209 primer and for some reason it does not go off make sure you check to see if your load is seated as it has enough power to move it down the bore. What OldHoyt says is true, cleanliness is everything. Also when you load have the hammer set on half cock to allow air to escape and the powder to get under the nipple. Try some REAL black powder once it worked before the educated gun writers told us the new stuff is better.
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Post by stevein on Dec 30, 2015 11:01:17 GMT -5
209 is a better design even if one is not having problems. It's common to get #11 caps that do not have a confluent coating. Misfires are much more common with #11. I don't know what brand caps you are using or where the info came from but in my opinion it would help most gardens grow. I have shot thousands of CCI, RWS and a few Remingtons and misfires or caps failing to fire can be counted on one hand. The #1 cause of a cap not going off is it does not fit the nipple correctly. #2 would be a weak mainspring but I have not seen this too often unless there are other problems with the lock.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Dec 30, 2015 11:39:42 GMT -5
I never even fired mine with the #11 percussion caps before swapping it out, so I have no comparison to draw from.
BUT, I have shot mine as many as 20 times between swabs with the 209 primer system and Blackhorn 209 powder, it shoots extremely clean, which is what I like. I still give it a thorough cleaning before storing it for any amount of time. Cleanliness was my reason for the conversion, not fears of misfires.
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Post by oldhoyt on Dec 30, 2015 12:14:48 GMT -5
The only caps I ever used were RWS (little metal tin with red label, black writing). I think they were actually size 10.75 not 11. Never had a cap fail to fire. Somehwere in the recesses of my mind, I think I recall looking into the cap and seeing a greenish coating that I assume was the ignition compound. If so, one could visually check the caps before hunting with them.
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Post by trapperdave on Dec 30, 2015 18:08:11 GMT -5
209s are to muzzle loading what expandable broad heads are to archery......a bandaid to fix a problem, or rather disguise it, that is better fixed thru education on the subject. If your gun doesn't go boom, its the operator not the cap......if your broad head don't hit with your field tips, its again the operator not knowing how to tune
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Post by Jamie Brooks 1John5:13 on Dec 30, 2015 23:47:39 GMT -5
209 is a better design even if one is not having problems. It's common to get #11 caps that do not have a confluent coating. Misfires are much more common with #11. I don't know what brand caps you are using or where the info came from but in my opinion it would help most gardens grow. I have shot thousands of CCI, RWS and a few Remingtons and misfires or caps failing to fire can be counted on one hand. The #1 cause of a cap not going off is it does not fit the nipple correctly. #2 would be a weak mainspring but I have not seen this too often unless there are other problems with the lock. Well, I'm sure you know better than I do.
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Post by oldhoyt on Dec 31, 2015 8:38:43 GMT -5
If 209 primers were around when the first sidelocks were made, they would have used 209s. But that doesn't really mean they are "better". It's all in what you want to use as a shooter.
I won't scope my renegade, but you could say a scope is a better sighting system than iron sights. My in-line uses 209s and has a scope.
I haven't kept up with it, but whatever few sidelocks are still made today probably use caps. But the modern designs I'm aware of all use 209s. Things evolve.
If you ask me to pick between the Renegade and the in-line to shoot a deer I'll take the in-line. But I like the Renegade more and have more fun shooting it.
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Post by stevein on Dec 31, 2015 13:05:33 GMT -5
I can understand the use of 209's in an inline no problem there. I know getting black powder is very difficult in lots of areas but you can buy some form of subs at most Walmarts. What I don't understand is the use of a 209 adapter on a sidelock. It requires additional parts over and above the nipple. All it would take is one fumble with cold fingers and you are out of business. It seems to be a solution to a problem that does not exist.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Dec 31, 2015 14:46:07 GMT -5
I never realized people were so sensitive about side lock muzzleloader primers..
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Post by trapperdave on Dec 31, 2015 19:46:57 GMT -5
Yup.
Do what ya want with the in lines. But when it comes to traditional muzzleloaders, keep them traditional!
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Post by nfalls116 on Dec 31, 2015 20:08:34 GMT -5
I never realized people were so sensitive about side lock muzzleloader primers.. #sidelocks matter
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Post by nfalls116 on Jan 15, 2016 0:32:50 GMT -5
I never realized people were so sensitive about side lock muzzleloader primers.. hey! I saw where I can buy a conversion from my 209 primer to #11 caps
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