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Post by jjas on Feb 27, 2015 15:41:22 GMT -5
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 27, 2015 16:08:22 GMT -5
Interesting stuff and comments by Mike Hanback..
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 28, 2015 6:48:05 GMT -5
I find it interesting that the so called "Loss" of habitat is simply paid CRP programs yet the land and whatever is planted there never left so loss of habitat is a very very subjective part of this. Especially since deer will continue to use that land it did not vanish even as crop land or in many cases a around here still in set a side type plantings. Since the 5+ mil acres of land did not just vanish the deer don't just vanish or stop reproducing either they just simply move over to the next adjacent cover and continue to feed on that now crop land .LOL <I rediscovered that myself just this fall for the 20th or so time.
Deer don't disappear because the planting changed they are still alive look at urban areas that have little such cover yet deer herds continued to grow out of control in that setting .I smell BS from KIP to distance the club and keep them fault free !
Still IMHO a big excuse that the QDMA is looking for since they are the architect of pass a buck shoot a doe mentality and do not want any blame for the deer declines here in the Midwest ..Many will buy anything that silly little South Eastern US based deer club say ..
Mike has his finger dead on the cause button here IMHO smart fella.
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Post by drs on Feb 28, 2015 7:31:22 GMT -5
This, I agree with. Especially with habitat loss.
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 28, 2015 20:40:50 GMT -5
This, I agree with. Especially with habitat loss. Honest question here DRS ..So did they all just suddenly vanish ??I mean all bucks are born from a doe are they not .And lets be even more honest there are no deer starving anywhere here in the Midwest in fact they are some of the healthiest deer in the country .So what is kip and you saying here that because there is less crp it made it easier to kill all the deer in hunting season thus not reproducing because they were killed? Deer don't just stop breeding and fawning because there is a loss of a few acres of crp here and there and they certainly did no starve to death .Could it be all those years of giant doe quotas instead .and since any trophy buck of 4.5 years of age or older was born 4 plus years ago how would that habitat loss figure in ???would they not just move over to the next closest cover and continue to feed on the new crops planted and remaining natural forage ?? I find that a simple and easy excuse rather than lay blame where it belongs with massive over harvest in many areas of the buck producers .But hay its like chickens when you kill the hens eventually you have no or few eggs and thus no roosters . I could get it if there was a sudden loss of all food over 5 mil acres but that's not the case at all and all that land was not built on or made into city its still there and many cases carrying far more deer food than it ever did . |
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Post by drs on Mar 1, 2015 5:54:45 GMT -5
Honest question here DRS ..So did they all just suddenly vanish ??I mean all bucks are born from a doe are they not .And lets be even more honest there are no deer starving anywhere here in the Midwest in fact they are some of the healthiest deer in the country .So what is kip and you saying here that because there is less crp it made it easier to kill all the deer in hunting season thus not reproducing because they were killed?
There are areas in the Midwest that aren't affected [YET] but many more areas are that way or in the process of losing habitat due to developments or farming practices.
Deer don't just stop breeding and fawning because there is a loss of a few acres of crp here and there and they certainly did no starve to death .Could it be all those years of giant doe quotas instead .and since any trophy buck of 4.5 years of age or older was born 4 plus years ago how would that habitat loss figure in ???would they not just move over to the next closest cover and continue to feed on the new crops planted and remaining natural forage ??
No, they don't stop breeding but their offspring is going to become weaker, and produce fewer twins, due to poor habitat. Without some intervention, to preserve what habitat is left, things will only become worse for Deer. You mention CRP which is fine if the habitat is suitable to sustain it. Also mentioned in your post, concerning Doe harvest quotas, many areas have that Doe harvest too high, when it is not needed. Habitat loss would reduce the chances of bagging a 4.5 year old Trophy Buck. Most instances they become easy targets as they have little areas to hide in for protection and the same goes for Doe or Antlerless Deer. So if habitat is not sustained the chances for harvesting that "Trophy Buck" become less & less. In short you need suitable Habitat, natural or man made habitat, to sustain a balanced Deer herd plus prudent harvest quota's.
I find that a simple and easy excuse rather than lay blame where it belongs with massive over harvest in many areas of the buck producers .But hay its like chickens when you kill the hens eventually you have no or few eggs and thus no roosters .
I could get it if there was a sudden loss of all food over 5 mil acres but that's not the case at all and all that land was not built on or made into city its still there and many cases carrying far more deer food than it ever did .
Your two point (above) are correct in regards to massive harvest of Deer in any given area. However if you wish to keep and maintain the 5 million acres; you need to keep all development out of that area or that development will have a negative affect on your Deer population.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 1, 2015 7:56:15 GMT -5
Long term cover from hunters and predators is just as important to deer as a food source.
More liberal doe permits, decreased cover, coyote predation and EHD...Sounds like a "perfect storm" to me.
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Post by throbak on Mar 1, 2015 8:32:25 GMT -5
Here in Indiana the loss of CRP ground will not hurt deer There replacing it with Corn and beans Game birds and the endangered birds it helps will be hurt tremendously IMO Deer on the otherhand there replacing it with giant food Plots
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Post by drs on Mar 1, 2015 8:50:55 GMT -5
Here in Indiana the loss of CRP ground will not hurt deer There replacing it with Corn and beans Game birds and the endangered birds it helps will be hurt tremendously IMO Deer on the otherhand there replacing it with giant food Plots However, with the decrease in CRP land along with rapid development of remaining lands & habitat, isn't good for wildlife species. Also might add the number of farms are either shrinking or disappearing at an alarming rate, due to regulations, land grabs, & taxes. |
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Post by tomthreetoes on Mar 1, 2015 11:15:21 GMT -5
I'm far from an expert on the subject but I believe the over harvest of does and the over abundance of predators are the main cause of declining deer numbers. I'll agree that habitat loss has some effect but I think numbers are declining faster than habitat losses. Deer are just as happy to live in standing corn or soybeans as CRP. The small game animals are the ones who suffer most from the loss of the CRP lands.
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Post by shouldernuke on Mar 1, 2015 11:26:08 GMT -5
Long term cover from hunters and predators is just as important to deer as a food source. More liberal doe permits, decreased cover, coyote predation and EHD...Sounds like a "perfect storm" to me. Agree with most of this. Yesterday we had the show cameras at the Deer and turkey expo "Sat" .BTW the best show in decades and most people on a Sat ever. The same theme came from almost all the hunters there expressed a need to start a rebuild and to protect the deer herd and especially the Doe herd .They almost all said we need way way tighter limit most said two or three deer a year only 1 or 2 being a doe .And almost to the man said do away with bonus antlerless seasons and restrict gun hunters to only one doe/ antlerless with regular firearm with in regular Fire arms season. They all almost to man said that "ALL" deer seasons need to be greatly reduced in duration including "BOW" season .Many said by a month or even more . To the man they said quality has fallen off faster than quantity .Most said quantity of deer in many/most places in the state was in toilet . So expect a push by lots and lots of hunters to change all deer seasons and demand strict per hunter limits rather than county limits and bonus seasons and tags . One thing for sure it not just a few unhappy hunters its almost all and they are demanding some serious change .Adam Hayes even echoed exactly this about IN and OH he was very disappointed where both states have gone and gotten too .He said quality bucks are becoming very hard to find in both states .FYI this guy has killed on his own over 9 bucks with a bow that are over 170 inches .No outfitters hunts hard just like us he knows deer . My bet is we will push and get stricter limits per hunter rather than the limits we now have and much shorter seasons before too many years if the DNR has the sac for it and will listen to the throngs of unhappy hunters. I would not of wanted to be a IDNR official at that show no way ! |
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Post by shouldernuke on Mar 1, 2015 11:30:48 GMT -5
Here in Indiana the loss of CRP ground will not hurt deer There replacing it with Corn and beans Game birds and the endangered birds it helps will be hurt tremendously IMO Deer on the otherhand there replacing it with giant food Plots However, with the decrease in CRP land along with rapid development of remaining lands & habitat, isn't good for wildlife species. Also might add the number of farms are either shrinking or disappearing at an alarming rate, due to regulations, land grabs, & taxes. Buddy up here in the northern part of the state There is little in the way of farms disappearing over the last 25 or so years to be truthful and little loss of habitat due to development .Its really a non issues for most the area north of INDY . Just loss of deer due to EHD , Coyotes and mostly Way way too many antlerless tags being sold and too big of antlerless deer limits over the last 10 or so years .Time for change IMHO with seasons and limits .I'm with the majority here in our state calling for shorter seasons and a 2-3 deer limit one of which has to be a Buck per hunter and be done . |
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Post by shouldernuke on Mar 1, 2015 11:31:31 GMT -5
I'm far from an expert on the subject but I believe the over harvest of does and the over abundance of predators are the main cause of declining deer numbers. I'll agree that habitat loss has some effect but I think numbers are declining faster than habitat losses. Deer are just as happy to live in standing corn or soybeans as CRP. The small game animals are the ones who suffer most from the loss of the CRP lands. IMHO he gets it !! |
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Post by swilk on Mar 1, 2015 12:10:51 GMT -5
However, with the decrease in CRP land along with rapid development of remaining lands & habitat, isn't good for wildlife species. Also might add the number of farms are either shrinking or disappearing at an alarming rate, due to regulations, land grabs, & taxes. Buddy up here in the northern part of the state There is little in the way of farms disappearing over the last 25 or so years to be truthful and little loss of habitat due to development .Its really a non issues for most the area north of INDY . Just loss of deer due to EHD , Coyotes and mostly Way way too many antlerless tags being sold and too big of antlerless deer limits over the last 10 or so years .Time for change IMHO with seasons and limits .I'm with the majority here in our state calling for shorter seasons and a 2-3 deer limit one of which has to be a Buck per hunter Similar in the southern part I'm familiar with... Biggest habitat loss I see is the typical fence row and small treeline clearing to plant a few more acres of corn and beans. Deer are an edge species and are able to live just about anywhere... Very few farms have gone away in the last 20 years that I'm aware of. |
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Post by shouldernuke on Mar 1, 2015 12:13:07 GMT -5
Buddy up here in the northern part of the state There is little in the way of farms disappearing over the last 25 or so years to be truthful and little loss of habitat due to development .Its really a non issues for most the area north of INDY . Just loss of deer due to EHD , Coyotes and mostly Way way too many antlerless tags being sold and too big of antlerless deer limits over the last 10 or so years .Time for change IMHO with seasons and limits .I'm with the majority here in our state calling for shorter seasons and a 2-3 deer limit one of which has to be a Buck per hunter Similar in the southern part I'm familiar with... Biggest habitat loss I see is the typical fence row and small treeline clearing to plant a few more acres of corn and beans. Deer are an edge species and are able to live just about anywhere... Very few farms have gone away in the last 20 years that I'm aware of. Exactly what we have here they are actually creating better edge work here is what I have noticed. |
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Post by greghopper on Mar 1, 2015 12:14:53 GMT -5
Long term cover from hunters and predators is just as important to deer as a food source. More liberal doe permits, decreased cover, coyote predation and EHD...Sounds like a "perfect storm" to me. Agree with most of this. Yesterday we had the show cameras at the Deer and turkey expo "Sat" .BTW the best show in decades and most people on a Sat ever. The same theme came from almost all the hunters there expressed a need to start a rebuild and to protect the deer herd and especially the Doe herd . They almost all said we need way way tighter limit most said two or three deer a year only 1 or 2 being a doe .And almost to the man said do away with bonus antlerless seasons and restrict gun hunters to only one doe/ antlerless with regular firearm with in regular Fire arms season. They all almost to man said that "ALL" deer seasons need to be greatly reduced in duration including "BOW" season .Many said by a month or even more . Isn't that what most are doing NOW??? 2010 Hunter Survey (page 28) www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-MR_1034_2010_Deer_Hunter_Survey.pdf |
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Post by swilk on Mar 1, 2015 12:15:57 GMT -5
Long term cover from hunters and predators is just as important to deer as a food source. More liberal doe permits, decreased cover, coyote predation and EHD...Sounds like a "perfect storm" to me. Agree with most of this. Yesterday we had the show cameras at the Deer and turkey expo "Sat" .BTW the best show in decades and most people on a Sat ever. The same theme came from almost all the hunters there expressed a need to start a rebuild and to protect the deer herd and especially the Doe herd .They almost all said we need way way tighter limit most said two or three deer a year only 1 or 2 being a doe .And almost to the man said do away with bonus antlerless seasons and restrict gun hunters to only one doe/ antlerless with regular firearm with in regular Fire arms season. They all almost to man said that "ALL" deer seasons need to be greatly reduced in duration including "BOW" season .Many said by a month or even more . To the man they said quality has fallen off faster than quantity .Most said quantity of deer in many/most places in the state was in toilet . So expect a push by lots and lots of hunters to change all deer seasons and demand strict per hunter limits rather than county limits and bonus seasons and tags . One thing for sure it not just a few unhappy hunters its almost all and they are demanding some serious change .Adam Hayes even echoed exactly this about IN and OH he was very disappointed where both states have gone and gotten too .He said quality bucks are becoming very hard to find in both states .FYI this guy has killed on his own over 9 bucks with a bow that are over 170 inches .No outfitters hunts hard just like us he knows deer . My bet is we will push and get stricter limits per hunter rather than the limits we now have and much shorter seasons before too many years if the DNR has the sac for it and will listen to the throngs of unhappy hunters. I would not of wanted to be a IDNR official at that show no way ! I talk to several guys who would disagree with the quality being down....quantity yes. |
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Post by swilk on Mar 1, 2015 12:18:21 GMT -5
If every hunter were truly of the opinion that we need to kill less female deer the solution seems pretty simple.....just stop shooting them. No action from the DNR needed.
I doubt its that simple though and I doubt all hunters agree.
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Post by greghopper on Mar 1, 2015 12:24:23 GMT -5
If every hunter were truly of the opinion that we need to kill less female deer the solution seems pretty simple.....just stop shooting them. No action from the DNR needed. I doubt its that simple though and I doubt all hunters agree. Exactly....some folks would keep Hunting even if there was only 1 Deer in the Herd!! |
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Post by shouldernuke on Mar 1, 2015 12:27:29 GMT -5
If every hunter were truly of the opinion that we need to kill less female deer the solution seems pretty simple.....just stop shooting them. No action from the DNR needed. I doubt its that simple though and I doubt all hunters agree. Agreed !! But my guess is most the hunters down there wanting short seasons and small limits are not just the Joe Blow guy who occasionally hunt and honestly as I stated most were of that opinion .what was disconcerting was the few !! Who said they killed 6-10 deer and think that they needed more season length or even more liberal county or weapon limits .They were there to .It take many like that to boil bad eggs .They do single handedly 1 hunter who will kill 6-12 deer per year in a given area more damage than the 10 who just kill 1 -2 deer in any area . I think what the majority are talking about is exactly that minority who ruin whole areas and hunting for the many over a short period of years .They need to be brought into some sort of control since the majority like that have little or no control over what they do and will pull that trigger every time they can no matter how good or bad that local deer herd is . I think this is what concerns most who were all about a recovering deer herd and lower bag limits per hunter . |
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