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Post by span870 on Feb 24, 2015 19:10:37 GMT -5
I agree 100% there needs to be regulations. I would think someone needs to have oversight. Who, I don't know. Something that does bother me is where the animals come from. I don't care about cwd because quite honestly as I've stated before its never been proven to have crossed the fence. I do have an issue with where they come from. Let me tell you a story. I went to Iowa on a ranch for an elk hunt. I knew going into it that this isn't high country Wyoming so I wanted to stack the deck as high as I could. Bow only and one particular animal. First day we go out and the guide shows us a beautiful 375 bull. It just stands there. I asked him why. He tells me just came I'm from a private farm that guy only raised that one elk and he just got out of hand. This bull was 30 yards chewing his cudd. Later I came back by myself and watches this animal. I actually got to throwing Osage apples at it to try to make it more spooked. Nothing I could do. So I have an issue acquiring animals in that sort. Maybe require only animals raised on that ranch and only in the "wild" of the ranch. I raise rabbits for training and I try my darndest to make them as wild as can be before they leave. I was told by the owner he could get me any animal I wanted. From an elephant to a rabbit. I guess I'm kind of on the fence here. I do view them as livestock but also where do we stop. He had a magazine of all the animals he could acquire. It was eye opening. I don't know what the limits should be. Who's to say what acerage is acceptable? I'm kind of torn really when I think about that elk. It really was a pet but the same could be said about cattle. To be honest I'm not against it because I have friends in the breeding business that sell to ranches, but I guess honestly I don't like it. With a minimum average I'd be okay but yeah some of these are just pens. I have been on a couple of hogs hunts that if you didn't drive through the fence you wouldn't know it was there but others were like shooting pets, and I didn't shoot on those. Would I do it again...any? Probably not. Sorry so long. Just a ramble from someone with experience.
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Post by chubwub on Feb 24, 2015 19:15:00 GMT -5
I believe the link you sent is incorrect. And yes a neighbor can pay money to shoot your cow. It is called a bill of sale and as long as you do not sell the meat you can humanely kill that cow anywhere on your land or wherever you have permission where firearms are allowed. I have sold this man my cow on the hoof and given him permission to dispatch and process the animal on my property at his own risk. And that my friends is why the deer preserves have pushed so hard to make them livestock...because then there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop a man from shooting deer he has purchased through a bill of sale without dragging cattle, sheep, pig and goat farmers into it.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Feb 24, 2015 19:38:05 GMT -5
... Their survey found 63% of sportsmen would not shut down preserves, I did not say they would hunt on them but they didnt have a problem with them. The survey is a little biased in my opinion I think because I have seen the percentage more like 82 in favor... "Would not shut down" and "in favor of" are very different things. I probably wouldn't shut you down, as long as you are following the law, paying taxes, etc. But I'm clearly not in favor of it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 19:59:36 GMT -5
First off ...we get a pretty good amount of traffic here without this "hot topic". There have been others that have went as long, if not longer. This one has been mild..so far.
I do not believe any online poll put out by Outdoor Life. They had a similar online poll on crossbows. It became real apparent that the poll was being manipulated by the anti-crossbow crowd when the numbers and percentage of votes changed significantly within a matter of 15 minutes. Just killing cookies and re-voting would not change it that fast. Some anti-crossbow person or two was running a bot on the poll. I informed Outdoor Life about it and they just let it keep on running. I guess number of $ite hit$ was more important than a good, honest poll. They lost credibility with me there.
Of course the anti-crossbow movement used that poll to say that the overwhelming majority of hunters did not want crossbows. I have no clue as to whether shooting preserve poll followed the same vein, but I take anything Outdoor Life says with a huge grain of salt. No matter as I'm sure that you will keep right on using you 62% figure as it fits your narrative..
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 20:03:47 GMT -5
Shane,
It is going to happen..just a matter of time. Too many politicians will vote for it no matter what. Just follow the money.. I've posted and sent my idea of regulations and we will see what will happen. My guess is there will be very limited regulations and the Lord knows these folks don't have a very good track record in self regulating.
I'm almost 76 so I may not be around when the SHTF, but it will some day.. Mark my word..
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Post by span870 on Feb 24, 2015 20:23:51 GMT -5
... Their survey found 63% of sportsmen would not shut down preserves, I did not say they would hunt on them but they didnt have a problem with them. The survey is a little biased in my opinion I think because I have seen the percentage more like 82 in favor... "Would not shut down" and "in favor of" are very different things. I probably wouldn't shut you down, as long as you are following the law, paying taxes, etc. But I'm clearly not in favor of it. I would say it's neither would shut down or in favor of...ambivalent is probably the word. Don't think a lot of people care one way or another.
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Post by swilk on Feb 24, 2015 20:24:28 GMT -5
Look at you..... Clearing cookies, bots.... Getting the hang of this internet fad aren't ya
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 20:45:38 GMT -5
woody, One more thing and I will let this die. There has been 4 preserves operating for the last 10 years without ANY oversight by anyone. No rules, No regulations, That means anything goes. There has not been a SINGLE complaint or issue with the 4 preserves in ten years. You are correct there has been some hideous things happen on hunting preserves, but not on the 4 currently in Indiana. As the courts have ruled we could continue that way. However, we WANT reasonable rules and regulations so bad actors do not get involved and ruin a good thing. If a real disease threat occurs or bad actors are allowed to jeopardize traditional hunting I will help you shut the industry down. Time will tell, Id say in a few weeks we will have something more for discussion.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 20:47:09 GMT -5
Look at you..... Clearing cookies, bots.... Getting the hang of this internet fad aren't ya I'm probably not the dummy some folks think I am. I watched the same thing happen once when a friend of mine was running for Woman Hunter of the Year at a women's camo site. I watched the percent go from 47% in favor of my friend to 70% in favor of her opposition in a matter of minutes. In that one the site did the right thing and threw out the bot votes .. It is a shame people feel the need to cheat to get what they want..
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 24, 2015 20:50:26 GMT -5
If there's was no oversight or regulations in place then how could there be any "complaints"..?
Who would complain
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Post by hunterman on Feb 24, 2015 21:03:44 GMT -5
If Outdoor life was gonna manipulate the poll (which I think they did) they would do it to promote their own agenda against the preserve, not the other way. I never got involved in the cross bow saga, just another method of hunting as far as im concerned. just dont call it bowhunting.
IF we operated as you would like people to think we did believe me there would be headlines in the papers from the undercover guys hunting at our places.
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Post by firstwd on Feb 24, 2015 21:37:40 GMT -5
Where is this place? I for one would love to come see it so I can form an educated opinion. I'll ask again, where is your place located? I have 3 right close to me that I'm not at all impressed with. Partly because several ear tagged deer have been shot over the years up to 10 miles from the farm the escaped from. I would gladly give you the opportunity to change my mind. I'm guessing visits aren't allowed? Is it a pay to see place maybe? Can we at least get a name or website?
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Post by greghopper on Feb 24, 2015 23:00:22 GMT -5
I believe the link you sent is incorrect. And yes a neighbor can pay money to shoot your cow. It is called a bill of sale and as long as you do not sell the meat you can humanely kill that cow anywhere on your land or wherever you have permission where firearms are allowed. I have sold this man my cow on the hoof and given him permission to dispatch and process the animal on my property at his own risk. And that my friends is why the deer preserves have pushed so hard to make them livestock...because then there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop a man from shooting deer he has purchased through a bill of sale without dragging cattle, sheep, pig and goat farmers into it. Incorrect...... You have to OWN the COW before you can shoot it... You can't charge you neighbor a fee to hunt and shoot a cow he doesn't own!! The link I posted is to BOAH which sets the laws we follow in Indiana for "humane slughther ".... That was the point I was making!! BTW...... You think a arrow to the rib cage would be allowed if you consider it a "Farm animals"
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Post by drs on Feb 25, 2015 5:16:33 GMT -5
AND FURTHER MORE THIS IS WHY I SUPPORT THE NWTF AND THE IWF THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT NEED YOU PEOPLE IN INDIANA The primary reason that NWTF is taking such a visible stance on this issue is because this legislation threatens the foundational principles (North American Model of Wildlife Conservation) of natural resource management in Indiana. The Indiana Department of Natural Resources has the authority to protect our wildlife and manage it for the citizens of the state. We feel it should remain that way. The NWTF strongly believes that wildlife management decisions should be made by trained and experienced wildlife biologists, using the best science to manage our state’s wildlife, hunters, and hunting heritage. They should not be made by the Indiana Board of Animal Health, as it has no mandate to protect and manage wildlife. As it should be.....
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Post by bullwinkle on Mar 1, 2015 18:21:20 GMT -5
Man pleads guilty in deer-selling case
By Kathy Lynn Gray The Columbus Dispatch • Saturday February 28, 2015 5:35 AM
A former Ohio resident pleaded guilty unexpectedly yesterday in federal court to charges that he transported deer to other states without the proper “disease-free” medical certification.
The trial for Donald W. Wainwright Sr. had been set for next week, and attorneys on both sides had been gearing up for months to bring in experts to testify about the multibillion-dollar U.S. deer-hunting industry.
Wainwright, 49, owns and operates a breeding and hunting center in Live Oak, Fla., and had been part owner and operator of one in West Liberty in Logan County. Hunters from around the United States went to the two places, which totaled more than 1,000 acres, to hunt the fenced-in herds.
Federal law prohibits the movement of captive white-tailed deer from one state to another unless the deer are certified to be free of tuberculosis.
In addition, the threat of chronic wasting disease led Georgia to ban the importation of white-tailed deer in 2006 and Florida to ban it in 2014. Before 2014, only deer from a herd certified free of chronic wasting disease for five years could be taken into Florida.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Ohio Division of Wildlife began investigating Wainwright in 2010 after wildlife officials noticed deer noses and antlers through the vents of a cargo trailer headed south on I-71. Officials stopped the trailer and found a shipment of 10 deer headed to a hunting preserve in Georgia.
Officials determined that the deer hadn’t been tested for disease, and the shipment included false paperwork that said the animals were being shipped to Florida.
Further investigation led to the 2014 indictment of Wainwright on one count of conspiracy, one count of wire fraud and 12 counts of other violations of the Lacey Act, which involves interstate wildlife trafficking.
Yesterday, he pleaded guilty to all of the charges, which covered the period from 2010 through 2012.
In a plea deal in U.S. District Court, he agreed to a sentence of 21 months in prison, a $125,000 fine, 200 hours of community service and an undetermined amount of restitution.
Wainwright also agreed to publish a statement in Deer Breeders Gazette detailing his criminal conduct and warning others of the dangers of illegally trafficking in deer.
His son, Donald W. Wainwright Jr., 29, had helped his father at the West Liberty center, called Valley View Whitetails. He was indicted in 2014 on one count of conspiracy, one count of making false statements and seven counts of violating the Lacey Act. His case has been sealed.
Assistant U.S. Attorney J. Michael Marous, who prosecuted the case, said he could not comment on the status of Wainwright Jr.’s case. A third man has been charged in connection with the conspiracy, but his case also is sealed, Marous said.
The Wainwrights were part-time residents of both West Liberty, about 50 miles northwest of Columbus, and Live Oak, in northern Florida between Tallahassee and Jacksonville. They now live exclusively in Florida.
According to the indictment, Wainwright Sr. put federal identification tags from dead deer that had been certified disease-free onto live deer that had not been certified.
He did that to a “trophy-sized” white-tail deer, Little Moose, which he bought with an unnamed co-conspirator for $20,000 in 2009. They made $72,000 selling Little Moose’s breeding services and semen nationwide.
Erryl Wolgemuth, senior special agent with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, testified yesterday that Wainwright Sr. held hunts in West Liberty without the business being licensed for out-of-state hunters. Participants paid $1,000 to $50,000 for each hunt.
Wolgemuth said Wainwright Sr.’s transport of untested deer led wildlife officials to inspect more than 170 deer-breeding centers in Ohio to test for disease.
David Thomas, the attorney for Wainwright Sr., said yesterday that investigators found no evidence of disease in any of the deer his client owned or transported.
Although Wainwright Sr. had “viable defenses” for his actions, he decided to plead guilty instead of going to trial, to put the situation behind him and “get on with his life,” Thomas said.
As recently as this month, Thomas had asked Judge Edmund A. Sargus Jr. to dismiss the charges against Wainwright Sr., arguing in part that the Lacey Act covers only wild deer and the deer he owned were domesticated.
kgray@dispatch.com
@reporterkathy
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Post by charlieinthebush on Mar 13, 2015 7:06:57 GMT -5
Deer farmers and preserves are some of the main sources of science,knowledge and understanding of ALL deer for the deer industry. If you were wanting to know information on something you have never experienced. How would someone who hasnt experienced what you are asking of, be qualified to answer? or even know what they are talking about? All this bashing hunters wether high fence or free range isnt going to get us anywhere. Except division within us. Understand that we arent writing articles to force you to do anything. People are doing it to us. Deer farmers can turn the tables at free rangers and say. If you do the math for your state, you will see that the wild herd is an economic loss. According to Iowa's dnr website 78% of a deer's diet is row crops. For example: if you figure a deer farmers feed costs are $500/year per deer. That is about $400/deer of costs on a farmer. Some of our other states like Texas have around $750 per head. 78% percent of that is $312 per wild deer a farmer doesn't make off his crops, so he can't spend it. Well a farmers dollar regenerates, or has an economic multiplier of 7 (I have seen recent reports that say 11). (Meaning that farmers loss cant be spent to make the economy better). That means that every deer in the states herd removes a minimum of $2184 of economic impact. In my state they report a herd of around 1 million wild deer. That means that $2.2 billion dollars is removed from the farm economy every year. That kind of shoots down their claim that the wild herd adds $750 million every year to my states economy through hunting. I think these are real numbers that we should not be ignorant of with wild deer herds. Also in my state, State Farm Insurance said that 5 years ago, claims from deer-car accidents were over $100million a year. Also they have several deaths each year, which, how do you put a value on them. I would like you to prove the wild herds Economic impact with hard numbers. The state, and hunters, don't think there's a cost to produce a wild deer. We as farmers know that's different. In my state 6 years ago they said the economic impact was $500 million/year, last year they raised it to $750 million/year. Understand that our deer herd is down around 9%, and our harvest numbers are down. How can you raise the economic impact with lower harvest numbers? Not to mention, the tie-up in this soil of prions for 20+ years. Now prions can be found to taken up in corn and alfalfa. Could the uncontrolled wild herd, spread CWD prions all over the landscape? Science sure is looking that way. Putting our export ability of corn at risk? It happened in beef in one case 12+ years ago. Maybe the only safe place for deer is behind a fence.
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Post by charlieinthebush on Mar 13, 2015 7:14:58 GMT -5
I will talk of Africa hunting and compare it to what is gong in the USA today. Well, understand, it was cattle ranchers who pioneered the Game Industry in Zimbabwe, Africa. They determined that game ranching made a viable land use alternative. You can even go back in our history and see a pamphlet from USDA promoting deer farming in 1908, What is happening now? In Zimbabwe, A bill was passed in their legislature that transferred wildlife authority [ownership] from the state, to the land. Critics, criticized this, it would be the end of game, it would ruin wildlife. Most of wildlife groups are against our preserve industry here, saying commercialization will destroy wildlife. In Africa, the opposite happened, wildlife flourished. Sport hunting proved profitable. This put a value on wildlife, and a reason to save it. Quoting from the General Manager of the Conservancy, “ if there is no value on wildlife, there is no need to protect it.” Again, ranchers saved wildlife in Africa. They will here also. Many of these so called sportsmen seem to be a large patrons of preserve hunting in Africa, yet they criticize it here. They criticize our feeding of deer in our pens, yet in their own business, don’t they promote tower feeders and food plots on free-range deer? Look at QDMA and their advertisers. They may have had the same feed our deer get!! I have seen more tower feeders in Texas on low fenced land than I have seen on preserves. Texas is the largest producer and consumer of deer feeders. Aren’t they also feeding these deer for better performance, thus growing larger racks?? Isn’t that against everything they are preaching to us? Are they certifying the low-fenced land they hunt, that it has the proper cover to hunt, to allow fair chase? Why do they want rules on one side of the fence, and not the other?? These guys dump feed on the roads, and the deer are trained to come up to feed. How is this fair-chase, and ours is not? They call us canned, but with their deer trained and dependant to come to feeders, how is that fair-chase? These animals are trained to come up when they hear a vehicle. It’s a free meal. They have basically built an invisible fence around that herd. Are they really free-range?? They are not going to leave their food source!!! What makes wildlife important is the thrill the hunter gets when he gets his trophy, period!!! Whether behind high or low fence. The hunter needs to determine what his goals and values are. Are they trying to form an “ethics police”, to tell hunters if they were on a real hunt?? Aldo Leopold wrote, “A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than a mob of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact.” In his book, Beyond Fair Chase, Jim Posewitz noted, “The most important measure of hunting success is how you feel about yourself…” Why is it now that we have groups of hunters that criticize other hunters? With PETA and HSUS looming in the shadows, are we are own worst enemy?
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Post by charlieinthebush on Mar 13, 2015 7:23:44 GMT -5
Hunterman your wasting you time trying to convince ME and Hopefully every one else one this site the need for, the sportsmanship involved and the very Idea that I would play both sides of the fence when it comes to canned hunting there is nothing sportsman like connected to paying for a particular deer inside a fence and Killing it and no one here I hope is worried about whether they have to use a licence or not that is a non issue ITS NOT HUNTING also to some others Politics is very much a part of the hunting scene Like it or not , Give it up Hunterman you are a embarrassment to me to think you even consider me a hunter same as you I am not never will be these killing pens are no different than pay lakes they are both despicable forms of perverted entertainment with a natural resource legal or not . Anyone who thinks a deer can't escape a situation on a 100+ plus acres with 70% percent cover, obviously doesn't know deer.
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Post by throbak on Mar 13, 2015 7:31:40 GMT -5
And the Seanate will shut it down Dont compare your killing behind a fence to the like me and others l its for a profit its not hunting . The the issue is spread of CwD its not here and we want to see that its not Go back to the bush
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Post by throbak on Mar 13, 2015 7:36:51 GMT -5
I will never know either I will never put myself in that situation where I pay someone to pen a deer up for me to Killing you probably have paylakes also dont you??
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