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Post by chubwub on Feb 1, 2015 16:37:42 GMT -5
Obviously high fence hunting is a controversial topic. One thing that I do not understand is if high fence hunting is the cause of CWD and unsporting then how does this effect places like Atterbury, Crane and other military bases that contain many similar attributes? One would expect to see CWD in these deer at a much higher rate as well I would imagine. Therefore high fence is only unsporting if it's privatized but when the state does it, it's perfectly okay? I get the concern about importing new diseases in via captive deer from new locations but the other two arguments people use for against high fence hunting confuse me. Any chance a deer biologist might be able to explain how places like Atterbury and Crane are different from high fence operations other than the fact that deer were not brought in?
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Post by M4Madness on Feb 1, 2015 17:25:40 GMT -5
Crane does not have a high perimeter fence, and deer can move freely onto and off the base at will. I've never been to Camp Atterbury, but I doubt that it is escape-proof either.
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Post by chubwub on Feb 1, 2015 18:48:29 GMT -5
No fence is escape proof but these kinds of areas are very effective at isolating deer populations. Atterbury has 2 military areas completely surrounded by a 6ft high perimeter fence with another 1ft of barbed wire angled at 45 degrees. This type of fence design is extremely effective for discouraging animals from jumping as it creates an optical illusion that the fence is much higher. One of the fenced areas is brand new and quite sound. The other is also well maintained. I have seen deer in both these areas. Unless something has changed, there were areas in Crane that were completely fenced off as well.
The Seneca deer herd in New York would also be a good example as well, even though they are not hunted.
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 1, 2015 20:04:16 GMT -5
I think that the worry of CWD getting here because of a deer farm is over blown .Fact is its a wild and pen raised deer illness that is wild herds in many states now and even if they close and outlaw every deer farm in this state it is only a matter of time since it is a wild deer herd disease before it gets here .The CWD ship has already sailed and it will eventually arrive here .Only time and distance remains between IN deer herds and CWD.
Fact is no one actually knows how or where it started its the chicken and egg was it a wild deer or elk or the fenced one many decades ago out west that started it ?As a matter of fact it is suggested by some specialists that its been in wild herds since before white man ever arrived here and we just discovered it and panicked over it! Same deal here eventually it will get here and we will deal with our way whatever way that is .So closing the pens or whatever is just too late it is in at least 3 states around us now too little too late .
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Post by jjas on Feb 1, 2015 20:33:41 GMT -5
So do either of you (chubwub or shouldernuke) think high fence hunting should be allowed?
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 1, 2015 20:58:40 GMT -5
I don't care either way as it will not effect me or my hunts here in IN at all. But its their live stock so they can as far as I am concerned do what they want with them they are not wild der and they own em .Hell we don't tell any other farmers what they can or can not do or to not sell their live stock .
As stated I don't really care either way .I think this is honestly more about some deep seated jealousy over not being able to or willing to hunt/shoot on a deer farm and desire by those who seem to have some ax to grind with these farmers and wanting others to not pay to do it more than anything .I think there are some so called hunters in our state and ranks that have their panties in a bind over what others do ,pay for and use all the time .
Just like many use so called opportunity because they don't know when to stop hunting and others use other excuses to get what they want or don't want here in IN. Most IMHO use the CWD card that are against it like a tired excuse and will not own the real reason they want none of it .Ethically and morally not my call what others feel is right and should not be anyone else's call what others do either .They just don't have to do it if they don't like it and move on and do what those who are against do or don't do .Just my take on it .
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Post by greghopper on Feb 1, 2015 21:31:54 GMT -5
I don't care either way as it will not effect me or my hunts here in IN at all. But its their live stock so they can as far as I am concerned do what they want with them they are not wild der and they own em .Hell we don't tell any other farmers what they can or can not do or to not sell their live stock . Deer are not LIVE STOCK......You can stick a whitetail deer behind a fence, but that doesn’t turn it into a cow. Ever see a person pay to shoot a COW behind a FENCE??? |
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Post by shouldernuke on Feb 1, 2015 21:46:02 GMT -5
I don't care either way as it will not effect me or my hunts here in IN at all. But its their live stock so they can as far as I am concerned do what they want with them they are not wild der and they own em .Hell we don't tell any other farmers what they can or can not do or to not sell their live stock . Deer are not LIVE STOCK......You can stick a whitetail deer behind a fence, but that doesn’t turn it into a cow. Paint it how you want those deer are still just genetically engineered live stock and death bred to be live stock and killed either at the hands of the farmer or someone else hunter or butcher its still live stock ..FYI Farmers and those who butcher their own cattle still shoot those cattle and hogs to kill them too no difference .These are not wild deer they are live stock breed to be what they are and are not wild all live stock at some point came from a wild animal and were bred to be live stock and enhanced to produce certain qualities ....Paint it how you want it that's what you do anyways IMHO. lets be real they also raise buffalo and elk commercially too .. |
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Post by greghopper on Feb 1, 2015 22:08:57 GMT -5
Deer/Elk farms bring the risk of CWD and general farm livestock doesn't....PERIOD
BTW...Ever see a person pay to shoot a COW behind a FENCE???
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Post by chubwub on Feb 1, 2015 22:23:36 GMT -5
So do either of you (chubwub or shouldernuke) think high fence hunting should be allowed? I'm ambivalent about it. If it can be scientifically proven that CWD is undeniably caused by raising deer in captivity then yeah, maybe we need to do something about it. But the fact that some fenced areas like military bases which essentially function as high fence operations do not consistently have this problem raises a lot of questions. Also, if a high fence operation is 10,000 acres is it still unethical? Can deer still spread/develop CWD if their confinement area is that large? If canned hunting was regulated to a minimum acreage would that satisfy the ethical concerns people have? It's not something I personally would do and I'm going to make fun of people who do, but on the same token I fish for put and take trout and my fiance has done put and take pheasent. So why are these two species ethical to hunt/fish captive raised but not deer? Where are all the people saying that shooting the put and take pheasants is like shooting a chicken, lol? Pheasents can spread coccidosis to other wild game birds and farm raised trout can carry diseases like whirling yet some states stock them in streams with native wild trout! |
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Post by jjas on Feb 1, 2015 22:40:15 GMT -5
So do either of you (chubwub or shouldernuke) think high fence hunting should be allowed? I'm ambivalent about it. If it can be scientifically proven that CWD is undeniably caused by raising deer in captivity then yeah, maybe we need to do something about it. But the fact that some fenced areas like military bases which essentially function as high fence operations do not consistently have this problem raises a lot of questions. Also, if a high fence operation is 10,000 acres is it still unethical? Can deer still spread/develop CWD if their confinement area is that large? If canned hunting was regulated to a minimum acreage would that satisfy the ethical concerns people have? It's not something I personally would do and I'm going to make fun of people who do, but on the same token I fish for put and take trout and my fiance has done put and take pheasent. So why are these two species ethical to hunt/fish captive raised but not deer? Where are all the people saying that shooting the put and take pheasants is like shooting a chicken, lol? Pheasents can spread coccidosis to other wild game birds and farm raised trout can carry diseases like whirling yet some states stock them in streams with native wild trout! I went to a put & take pheasant "hunt" years ago. You had to practically step on the birds to get them to flush. It was about as sporting as walking into a yard full of chickens and shooting them would be. Needless to say, I was a "one and done" customer. |
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 1:44:49 GMT -5
If an animal is born in captivity, raised in captivity, and killed in captivity then that animal is livestock. Just be honest here. Its because its a deer. Why aren't you beating down my door to stop me from raising rabbits and ducks? Said it before and I'll say it again, show me one, just one proven case that can be traced 100% back to a deer farm. And again I'll ask like I did last time this argument came up, what is the minimum acerage for it to be "sporting". Say what you want big oaks and atterbury fences keep deer in and hunters out. I've hunted big oaks more than most and yes I've seen deer clear the fence. Very very few leave from the time they are born to the time they die.
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 1:48:11 GMT -5
So do either of you (chubwub or shouldernuke) think high fence hunting should be allowed? I'm ambivalent about it. If it can be scientifically proven that CWD is undeniably caused by raising deer in captivity then yeah, maybe we need to do something about it. But the fact that some fenced areas like military bases which essentially function as high fence operations do not consistently have this problem raises a lot of questions. Also, if a high fence operation is 10,000 acres is it still unethical? Can deer still spread/develop CWD if their confinement area is that large? If canned hunting was regulated to a minimum acreage would that satisfy the ethical concerns people have? It's not something I personally would do and I'm going to make fun of people who do, but on the same token I fish for put and take trout and my fiance has done put and take pheasent. So why are these two species ethical to hunt/fish captive raised but not deer? Where are all the people saying that shooting the put and take pheasants is like shooting a chicken, lol? Pheasents can spread coccidosis to other wild game birds and farm raised trout can carry diseases like whirling yet some states stock them in streams with native wild trout! Pheasants and trout are not deer. Deer are all that matter. |
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Post by drs on Feb 2, 2015 5:18:07 GMT -5
For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage.
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Post by chubwub on Feb 2, 2015 9:22:36 GMT -5
It seems like there is this weird double standard when it comes to certain animals and wildlife management. Shoot and kill all the feral hogs you want in any manner you want but when it comes to killing feral burros and mustangs (I love horses) to control them then it's an abomination. Shoot an invasive mute swan and people lose their freaking minds, but throw pigeons in a cage and launch them into the air to shoot like skeet targets and everything is A-OK. Non-native mute swans are protected species that cannot be hunted in several states, but the non-native pheasant has a hunting season. Catch a game fish like salmon or trout with your bare hands and you are the devil incarnate but drive down the river and whack Asian carp with baseball bats or noodle for catfish and no one bats an eye. Use an electronic call for ducks and geese and you are a no skilled hack of a hunter but if you don't use an electronic call for snow geese then you probably aren't a "serious" snow goose hunter. Hunt a deer over a corn feeder and it's unsporting, but hunt over an apple tree you planted that has apples all over the ground and you are just fine. Hunt ducks and geese in a corn field that has been mowed and you are looking at some serious jail time but go ahead and plant corn and flood it for the sole purpose to kill birds and that's just fine. Can't hunt ducks and geese over mowed sunflowers but sure go ahead and shoot doves over it.
I dunno, it just all seems really odd to me how the standards for what is ethical, fair chase, etc. flip-flop all over the place depending on what animal you are talking about and where you live.
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 9:27:50 GMT -5
It all about CWD..... Research it and educate yourself and be informed
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Post by swilk on Feb 2, 2015 9:54:48 GMT -5
I bet she has and is ..... her points are valid.
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -5
For those who didn't know; CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) was first observed in Northeast Colorado, back in 1967. The way it is introduced to other wild Deer herds in other States, is the import of an infected animal placed in these High Fenced areas. This infected Deer or Elk may not show signs of the disease in it's early stage. You started with a fact and ended with a statement. It is ASSUMED introduced to wild deer herds. |
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Post by greghopper on Feb 2, 2015 10:42:17 GMT -5
I bet she has and is ..... her points are valid. Her points are invalid when talking high fence and CWD |
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Post by span870 on Feb 2, 2015 10:47:52 GMT -5
Her points are extremely valid. I have researched it and maybe you can help me here, but can you point me to one article, unbiased that proves it came from a deer farm.
Several years back I hunted in Wyoming and two deer were killed on the ranch I hunted by us at the advice of WG&f. Both tested positive for cwd. No ranches for hundreds of miles. Where did it come from? Only thing around there is cattle and more cattle. Two deer infected and none before and none since. Seems that would dictate naturally occurring or dare I say we're infected somehow by cattle or feed.
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