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Post by swilk on Dec 18, 2014 5:54:13 GMT -5
<EDITED> AGAIN....
Also, you have several so called "facts" confused with your heavily slanted opinion. Your entire argument loses all credibility when that happens.
You coulda saved everyone 3 minutes of reading and just put you hate black guns.
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Post by dbd870 on Dec 18, 2014 7:32:48 GMT -5
Then your understanding of ballistics is flawed as it pertains to this issue and human error is present in the same amount under any of the circumstances. Therefore your entire basis for your opinion is flawed. when MPBR of a shotgun is 1/3 or 1/4 of a common deer/elk cartridge, that makes the HPR deadlier do to it's retained energy at extended ranges. you can probably kill a deer with a wrist rocket at 10' with the right shot placement ... try it a 100 yards. everything has it's limitations ... going to HPRs just pushes the limits further I used post links to a study PA commissioned when they were looking at thiss issue but I got tired of searching for it so I quit doing it in these discussions. The gist of it is HPR's are not any more of a safety hazard than what is legal now.
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Post by swilk on Dec 18, 2014 7:37:00 GMT -5
What impact do you think a bonded or all copper bullet would have had on those results?
The bottom line was HPR bullets were more likely to fragment .... what happens when a bullet is used that will not fragment?
Like all studies....all data..... there is more to it than what is printed on the paper.
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Post by dbd870 on Dec 18, 2014 7:53:17 GMT -5
A stout enough bullet certainly will perform differently than a more commonly used CorLokt, etc. However even at that there are plenty of places that allow HPR's in areas no different than IN and somehow they manage not to kill each other off; a few spots I hunt in KY are certainly no "safer" than anywhere I hunt here. The safety argument just doesn't hold water. I suspect it is just a excuse for some who don't want to see the change. As has been stated numerous times before the reason IN did not allow HPR's in the first place was to limit the number of deer taken, not because of safety. Now if that is a person's real reason then say so, that may or may not be a legitimate belief but at least one can argue it's merit. Nowhere in this state that I hunt gives me a range that can't be handled by what is legal now; however I'm in favor of the change as if you look at people who actually have a clue about firearm wounding mechanisms (Fackler etc) it seems once you get over ~2000fps additional wounding mechanisms come in to play and I am all for a quick kill and anything that facilitates that is a good thing to me.
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Post by swilk on Dec 18, 2014 8:02:15 GMT -5
I was just pointing out that there is more to that study than most realize or will admit. Blindly pointing to it and saying it proves without a doubt that rifles are safer is no better than claiming mass carnage if rifles are legalized.
Was not accusing you of blindly pointing to it ..... but I have seen plenty of times guys mention it and puff their chest like it is conclusive evidence in their favor. Its not ... its data and that is all. Data that can be used in support of ... but can also have holes poked in it fairly easily.
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Post by M4Madness on Dec 18, 2014 8:03:00 GMT -5
Colt marketed the SP1 (Sporter) AR-15 to the public in 1963 as a sporting rifle.
People don't buy hunting AR's to blast a bunch of rounds down the barrel in rapid succession. These precision rigs are babied and well cared for. Anyway, an AR-15 doesn't fire any faster than a Ruger Ranch Rifle or Remington 1100.
The reason the AR-15 excels over other hunting rifles can be summed up in one word -- MODULARITY. I can put a .22LR upper on it and squirrel hunt. In 10 seconds, I can swap that upper out for a .223 upper and varmint hunt. Another 10 seconds and I can have a 6.8 SPC upper on it and deer hunt (when legal). A semi-auto T/C Encore, if you will. Not to mention that there are more aftermarket accessories for them than any other rifle.
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 18, 2014 8:46:22 GMT -5
Colt marketed the SP1 (Sporter) AR-15 to the public in 1963 as a sporting rifle. People don't buy hunting AR's to blast a bunch of rounds down the barrel in rapid succession. These precision rigs are babied and well cared for. Anyway, an AR-15 doesn't fire any faster than a Ruger Ranch Rifle or Remington 1100. The reason the AR-15 excels over other hunting rifles can be summed up in one word -- MODULARITY. I can put a .22LR upper on it and squirrel hunt. In 10 seconds, I can swap that upper out for a .223 upper and varmint hunt. Another 10 seconds and I can have a 6.8 SPC upper on it and deer hunt (when legal). A semi-auto T/C Encore, if you will. Not to mention that there are more aftermarket accessories for them than any other rifke. There is no doubt that when GIs came home from WW2 after using semi-auto M1 Garands and Carbines that carried over into hunting. To say we should not use a hunting tool because it was originally designed for the military doesn't jive with history. Lots of guns that were on the battlefield made its way into the hunting scene.
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Post by woody1071 on Dec 18, 2014 9:22:04 GMT -5
I'm surprised there is ANY wild game where HPRs are legal. (Sarcasm intended)
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Post by freedomhunter on Dec 18, 2014 9:27:46 GMT -5
I see this possibly as the beginning of the end of quality deer hunting in Indiana, greed and stupidity not a good combo for DNR. I thought the same thing with crossbows. So your hunting has improved since crossbows?
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Post by M4Madness on Dec 18, 2014 10:02:14 GMT -5
I thought the same thing with crossbows. So your hunting has improved since crossbows? I was probably the biggest crossbow opponent on this site. Lol! I've since realized that what the next guy carries doesn't really affect me. I still don't hunt with one though.
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 18, 2014 10:22:48 GMT -5
So your hunting has improved since crossbows? I was probably the biggest crossbow opponent on this site. Lol! Hmmm... maybe just one of many. I've since realized that what the next guy carries doesn't really affect me. How very true. We should hunt to please only one person - ourselves. At the end of the day if we are happy with our hunt, no matter what we carried, then all is well.I still don't hunt with one though. Yep...personal choice. Just like we might have another choice come the 2015 season. biggrin2 We can use it or not.In these cases, choice is good...
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 18, 2014 10:47:52 GMT -5
............ The reason the AR-15 excels over other hunting rifles can be summed up in one word -- MODULARITY. I can put a .22LR upper on it and squirrel hunt. In 10 seconds, I can swap that upper out for a .223 upper and varmint hunt. Another 10 seconds and I can have a 6.8 SPC upper on it and deer hunt (when legal). A semi-auto T/C Encore, if you will. Not to mention that there are more aftermarket accessories for them than any other rifle. The Swiss knife of rifles.....
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Post by M4Madness on Dec 18, 2014 10:55:54 GMT -5
............ The reason the AR-15 excels over other hunting rifles can be summed up in one word -- MODULARITY. I can put a .22LR upper on it and squirrel hunt. In 10 seconds, I can swap that upper out for a .223 upper and varmint hunt. Another 10 seconds and I can have a 6.8 SPC upper on it and deer hunt (when legal). A semi-auto T/C Encore, if you will. Not to mention that there are more aftermarket accessories for them than any other rifle. The Swiss knife of rifles..... Exactly. Actually, it was probably a close race on who used the rifle first, military or civilians. The Air Force adopted it in 1962 and the Army started fielding it in Vietnam sometime in 1963 -- the same year that Colt started selling it to civilians.
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Post by hornzilla on Dec 18, 2014 11:37:35 GMT -5
I'm surprised there is ANY wild game where HPRs are legal. (Sarcasm intended) That's why there isn't any deer left in the whole state of Indiana. It's those guys with 358s. 35 Rem. And yes my shortened 444s.
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Post by subzero350 on Dec 18, 2014 12:28:55 GMT -5
One buys a semi - auto 5 shot shotgun expecting to use ......5 shots as fast as needed. One buys a singe shot rifle expecting to use one shot only. One buys a semi-auto rifle with a 20-30 round magazine expecting TO USE IT AS SUCH. As said, several times. The AR platform CAN be used the same as any rifle....BUT......... THERE IS NO REASON TO BUY A RIFLE CAPABLE OF FIRING MUILTIPLE SHOTS QUICKLY UNLESS EXPECTING TO DO SO. They are not more accurate They are not cheaper They are not in calibers not found otherwise They ARE bought to shoot multiple shots very quickly and this is the REASON the public has came out in droves to buy them for home defense, AGAIN.........BECAUSE of that capability. All one has to do is see how many rounds someone buys with one to know WHY they CHOSE that style of rifle. It IS the ONLY reason people buy them. This is your OPINION. It sounds like it is based on what the gun-grabbing mass media wants you to think. You're flat out wrong. The AR platform has become well known for being the "erector set" of guns. You can customize it to your particular liking like NO OTHER GUN on the market today. Don't like the factory stock? No problem - there are MANY different ones to choose from. Want to build a featherweight gun that doesn't weigh a ton so it is easier to carry on long hunts? No problem. You can't easily do that with a Remington 870. You do know they sell 5 round magazines for these AR's, right? You can buy those for your long hunts so you don't have to lug a lot of lead around the woods and you can then switch to 20 - 30 round mags if you want to have some fun at the range. <EDIT>
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 18, 2014 12:45:55 GMT -5
LOCKED..
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