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Post by esshup on Sept 4, 2014 3:09:13 GMT -5
I checked "reservations" but I really don't care if it passes or not. My big question is wouldn't 7.62x39 fall into the category and would it be legal for someone to use an AK? I'm against that just to clarify; there's no sport in it. spainy79, I don't see hunting as a "sport" even tho many people keep score. Why someone would empty the magazine at a deer is beyond me - I prefer to aim my shots, not spray and pray. Since the majority of my deer hunting is to put meat in the freezer, I'd prefer to ruin as little meat as possible. If a 7.62x39 wouldn't be enough for a deer, what about an AR10 in .308? I think any cartridge that can reliably kill a human out past 400 meters would be just as deadly on whitetails. If you look, there ARE hollowpoint bullets/cartridges available for hunting in the 7.62x39. We can't legislate stupid out of people, if they can't figure it out on their own, then I don't know what to do. I was at a state park hunt where I saw a guy walking thru a field randomally shooting his gun. When asked about it later (he was at a check station with his buddies, who had a deer) he said he was "bored". He was using a pump slug gun. What do you do in an instance like that?? I watched him walk thru the field, and he sure wasn't shooting at the ground. nor was the gun even horizontal....... I said Did you even consider where the slugs might be going? "nope" was the reply.
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Post by beehunter on Sept 4, 2014 6:15:26 GMT -5
I am all for it. I can't wait to order a new .243 or 25-06.
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Post by stevein on Sept 4, 2014 8:01:45 GMT -5
I checked some reservations. I feel there should be a limit on how many rounds can be loaded. I do not see deer hunting requiring more than five or six rounds. That is the limit on most revolvers and shotguns. I don't see where it would have an adverse affect on anyone except for the guys that just fling lead until they can no longer see the deer. I think those types are the ones that are most likely to have a wild shot people seem to be concerned about. Put a 5 or 6 shot max cap on detachable mags, only allow the same in fixed mags and I will be all for it. It will give me reason to drag Dad's cut down 30-40 Krag out once in a while. Dick's had the Savage Axis for less than $300 a couple of weeks ago. Maybe a nice 7MM-08 or a classic 30-06. HMMMMMMMM I really do not think the use of HPR by coyote hunters and the HPR caliber pistol hunters can be used as arguments for the use of HPR. There are not any where near the numbers of either compared to the numbers of deer hunters out opening weekend.
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Post by Russ Koon on Sept 4, 2014 9:42:20 GMT -5
esshup, Thanks for the invitation. I do appreciate the offer, but I'm a long way downstate and my longest range weapon only needs my current range capacity of 150 yards max out at my B-I-L's place for sighting in and satisfying my curiosity about drop out past my expected usage.
Sounds like you have a safe and responsible range setup.
But I'm afraid the numbers work against you on the advisability of enabling a good many less experienced or less thoughtful folks to join you in the use of that weaponry on whatever ranges they will find.
As you mention in your next post, there are folks out there who DON'T take their responsibilities as gun users seriously. Some of them are already too dangerous with the shotguns and slugs.
We used to apply for the gun hunts at Atterbury, long ago. You could tell when a deer was sighted over in the next draw, as it's progress down the draw was pretty well marked by the emptying of magazines, until the deer had finally either escaped or fallen over. Opening weekend down in some popular areas in the HNF are almost as bad, still. If you've missed those experiences, have no regrets. They are good experiences to miss out on. As a night shift worker and now a retiree, I quit going out on gun opener years ago. Good wekend to finish some fall yardwork and catch a football game or two. My "opener" was Tuesday or Wednesday, when things were quieter.
I am generally against regulations that restrict the responsible in order to try to adjust the behavior of the irresponsible. Such regulations generally don't work well, and end up being merely a nuisance to the people who would not have misused the freedom anyway.
This case, IMO, may be the exception to that general rule. It's all about the numbers, and the probable downsides and benefits. As stevein points out above, there are so few predator hunters and varminters these days shooting long range stuff, and they are generally experienced with such ammo, that their usage isn't going to be a good indicator of the effect of the change on the much larger population of deer hunters...including that "bored" guy wandering along and randomly shooting his shotgun.
Is it worth the increased risk that one life will be ended by someone using the privilege irresponsibly. How about the much more likely case of a few rounds landing in a schoolyard a mile from the ridge a deer was walking along when shot at? What kind of restrictive legislation would be likely after that happens? And what would be the benefits to us as hunters? A few guys wouldn't have to trim their cases to handload their rounds...a few others who wouldn't take a 400-yd shot on an animal, will have that ability to do something that they say they wouldn't do anyway....and a few who would like to "get one with Dad's ought-six" might have to travel out of state for the opportunity or settle for a paper deer on the range.
Do we HAVE to see what the effect is if we switch that Uzi to full auto in the hands of a nine year old newbie?
Can't we make a reasonable estimation of the downside risk and assess whether the benefit is really worth that increased risk, on a case-by-case basis?
There is a conflict between the theoretical and the practical that comes into play.
For instance, I'm definitely in favor of concealed carry by anyone who wants to. Those we wouldn't want to be carrying are doing it anyway, so the only ones we are really restricting are those who wouldn't likely be a problem. The upside there is the freedom to defend yourself and your family from things that DO happen to someone every day and every night. And the downside....well, I can't think of one.
But not every regulation is that silly. A few that are actually somewhat enforceable DO make sense and probably should be continued. IMO, the one we are discussing is probably one of those.
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Sept 5, 2014 6:36:38 GMT -5
Yup!
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Post by firstwd on Sept 5, 2014 16:26:11 GMT -5
esshup, Thanks for the invitation. I do appreciate the offer, but I'm a long way downstate and my longest range weapon only needs my current range capacity of 150 yards max out at my B-I-L's place for sighting in and satisfying my curiosity about drop out past my expected usage. Sounds like you have a safe and responsible range setup. But I'm afraid the numbers work against you on the advisability of enabling a good many less experienced or less thoughtful folks to join you in the use of that weaponry on whatever ranges they will find. As you mention in your next post, there are folks out there who DON'T take their responsibilities as gun users seriously. Some of them are already too dangerous with the shotguns and slugs. We used to apply for the gun hunts at Atterbury, long ago. You could tell when a deer was sighted over in the next draw, as it's progress down the draw was pretty well marked by the emptying of magazines, until the deer had finally either escaped or fallen over. Opening weekend down in some popular areas in the HNF are almost as bad, still. If you've missed those experiences, have no regrets. They are good experiences to miss out on. As a night shift worker and now a retiree, I quit going out on gun opener years ago. Good wekend to finish some fall yardwork and catch a football game or two. My "opener" was Tuesday or Wednesday, when things were quieter. I am generally against regulations that restrict the responsible in order to try to adjust the behavior of the irresponsible. Such regulations generally don't work well, and end up being merely a nuisance to the people who would not have misused the freedom anyway. This case, IMO, may be the exception to that general rule. It's all about the numbers, and the probable downsides and benefits. As stevein points out above, there are so few predator hunters and varminters these days shooting long range stuff, and they are generally experienced with such ammo, that their usage isn't going to be a good indicator of the effect of the change on the much larger population of deer hunters...including that "bored" guy wandering along and randomly shooting his shotgun. Is it worth the increased risk that one life will be ended by someone using the privilege irresponsibly. How about the much more likely case of a few rounds landing in a schoolyard a mile from the ridge a deer was walking along when shot at? What kind of restrictive legislation would be likely after that happens? And what would be the benefits to us as hunters? A few guys wouldn't have to trim their cases to handload their rounds...a few others who wouldn't take a 400-yd shot on an animal, will have that ability to do something that they say they wouldn't do anyway....and a few who would like to "get one with Dad's ought-six" might have to travel out of state for the opportunity or settle for a paper deer on the range. Do we HAVE to see what the effect is if we switch that Uzi to full auto in the hands of a nine year old newbie? Can't we make a reasonable estimation of the downside risk and assess whether the benefit is really worth that increased risk, on a case-by-case basis? There is a conflict between the theoretical and the practical that comes into play. For instance, I'm definitely in favor of concealed carry by anyone who wants to. Those we wouldn't want to be carrying are doing it anyway, so the only ones we are really restricting are those who wouldn't likely be a problem. The upside there is the freedom to defend yourself and your family from things that DO happen to someone every day and every night. And the downside....well, I can't think of one. But not every regulation is that silly. A few that are actually somewhat enforceable DO make sense and probably should be continued. IMO, the one we are discussing is probably one of those. With this logic, nobody should be allowed to have a drivers license until they are 40 with 20 years of instruction driving under their belt.
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Post by greyhair on Sept 5, 2014 18:48:38 GMT -5
Well, in this case I am against allowing HPR's. Two reasons, first because we are mostly a flat State and pretty heavily populated. It is too dangerous IMO. Kentucky, Missouri etc. are more hilly. Two years ago a guy about a mile from me had a.30-06 come through his window and hit his recliner. Deputies found the guys, still shooting, a long, long ways off. Second, because it will increase the amount of deer taken tremendously I fear, and I think we have a good population right now, at least in my parts. Like somebody else said, I can just hear that SKS unloading now, all 30 rounds.
We can shoot deer at 150-200 yards easy now with what we can use. Most guys can't hit much beyond that range anyway.
Funny thing, I will use a .30.06 on coyote though.
Just my opinion.
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 5, 2014 19:26:43 GMT -5
Well, in this case I am against allowing HPR's. Two reasons, first because we are mostly a flat State and pretty heavily populated. It is too dangerous IMO. Kentucky, Missouri etc. are more hilly. Two years ago a guy about a mile from me had a.30-06 come through his window and hit his recliner. Deputies found the guys, still shooting, a long, long ways off. Second, because it will increase the amount of deer taken tremendously I fear, and I think we have a good population right now, at least in my parts. Like somebody else said, I can just hear that SKS unloading now, all 30 rounds. We can shoot deer at 150-200 yards easy now with what we can use. Most guys can't hit much beyond that range anyway.Funny thing, I will use a .30.06 on coyote though. Just my opinion. I understand your thought process and respect it but two things I'd like to point out, or at least share my observations on as well as highlight your own point as I have above. A. So you think HPR use, should they be legalized, will result in a higher harvest, as I understand it. Previously we have discussed, more than once, that it is a small portion of our hunting fraternity that wants more than 1-3 deer (my observations agree with ONE being the norm locally). Time would tell of course but going by the fact that I know only a few that wished they could have shot more than they do and a whole lot that could shoot more as it is without HPR use. I don't see the number of deer HUNTERS WANT changing, regardless of weapon used, therefore I'd not expect a "tremendous" increase in the total harvest. I'm assuming you think more would be taken because a HPR is "easier" Or am I missing something because your own statement has me confused on HOW this would occur. B. quote "We can shoot deer at 150-200 yards easy now with what we can use. Most guys can't hit much beyond that range anyway". I AGREE and is why I am confused on how HPR would result in more deer taken if PRESENT firearms currently shoot as far as Mr. Average Joe Hunter can kill one? For the MOST part, I would wager most hunters hunt areas where shots over 200 yards are indeed, RARE as well, unless one sets up for such (and practices such, hopefully). So....Yep. I'm confused a bit here on how you consider HPR to "tremendously increase the amount of deer taken"? If I were to put a finger on a single negative thing that HPR use could result in it would the possibility of more deer hit and not retrieved but as in all incidents, that is NOT the firearm's failure. Annually I see and know of people who go deer hunting without firing a single round from their deer gun. Not even to double check previous settings. It about makes my skin crawl. I also see (read) and hear how "HPR make it easy to shoot TWICE as far as "they" can with a shotgun". Uh.....ok. It's POSSIBLE to do so but, if and ONLY if, said shooter has a LOT of experience with that rifle, with that ammo, with that scope, with various wind and light conditions.......and one HECK of a solid gun rest. WAY too many look at trajectory charts and say "Wow......I can zero it at 150 yards (example) and out to XYZ yards I can just put the X hairs on the chest and shoot!" ......not. At least not and EXPECT a good clean kill in a high percentage number of cases. Shoot yes. Kill the deer? Maybe... "Maybe" isn't good enough for most I hope. *** Having not done so*** much of their life via shooting varmints or long range targets, FEW even know what "200 yards" looks like. Forget 300 for most. The single thing I see most ignored by new HPR shooters is WIND DRIFT and I'm betting if you mention it to a new HPR shooter in the next year they will respond with " ?".......or worse, they will want to argue. A poorly hit deer with a 458 Winchester...is still just that, A poorly hit deer. Maybe retrievable, maybe not. Same goes for a 300 Weatherby or any other round. What I see that COULD happen is too many are going to look at trajectory charts and think they have a "magic wand" that whacks em and stacks em "as fer as you kin see em!!" <----(That's an ACTUAL QUOTE I recently heard from a local deer hunter) IMHO it's not that HPR are or are not "easier" its the fact that MOST I talk to feel they are....and require little to NO practice! Should the HPR proposal go through I would LOVE to see some well instructed "classes" held at available "long" range targets that would INCLUDE shooting not only "from the bench" but, more importantly, standard hunting conditions (like leaning against a tree). In fact I pretty much feel it would benefit the herd and the reputation of hunters in general if as many of us as we can roster would put a little time and effort offering to SHOW (not just tell) new HPR shooters HOW EASILY range judging errors and even a decent cross wind can result in a lost (but dying) whitetail. All included safety instructions concerning observing possible bullet paths etc would be included, of course. As always, only my 2 cents for thought for those that wish to do so. God Bless
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Post by greyhair on Sept 5, 2014 19:59:36 GMT -5
Good retort - I will have to think about it a while. I just don't know what the outcome would be, but I still have some reservations I guess.
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Post by GS1 on Sept 5, 2014 20:03:21 GMT -5
I used to sit in a couple of my stands and wish I could use my .270. Now that it is a real possibility, it doesn't much appeal to me.
Looking back 20 or so years, I can only think of a buck or 2 that would have been within a comfortable range if I had a rifle.
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Post by steve46511 on Sept 5, 2014 20:16:28 GMT -5
True long range out of a treestand is a real trick for ME, GS1. LOL Tried some practice shots with the 350JR. Arghh!! I think it has something to do with I have to let go of the tree in order to shoot well? Me and LONG range = prone and tripod!! But I'm old!! God Bless
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Post by firstwd on Sept 5, 2014 20:43:22 GMT -5
I have a farm that a certain extremely large buck has made a home around the corner post where three fields come together, 327 yards from the nearest tree. If you can't guess, he is quite old. I'm hoping he survives long enough for me to see HRP inclusion. Honestly, I haven't seen him this year so it might be too late.
For the most part for most people, this would just be an additional, more accurate, quicker terminal tool.
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Post by squirrelhunter on Sept 5, 2014 20:55:14 GMT -5
All for it,might be able to dust of the 30-06 .
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Post by dbd870 on Sept 6, 2014 6:53:15 GMT -5
True long range out of a treestand is a real trick for ME, GS1. LOL Tried some practice shots with the 350JR. Arghh!! I think it has something to do with I have to let go of the tree in order to shoot well? Me and LONG range = prone and tripod!! But I'm old!! God Bless Yep; if I'm in a spot where longer range shooting (200+ to 300 yds or so) is the order of the day I don't get up in a tree. I've had good luck using deadfalls as a rest. Speaking of which I was hunting from such a set up and had the crosshairs on one and pushed the safety off too hard instead of easing it off and the deer alerted on it. Couldn't figure out what it was and I got it but it definitely was looking for the source of the noise: range 225yds. Even at distance you still have to be careful. As for distance estimation - you need a to have a rangefinder with you. Wind; yep that is a biggie. A 10-15mph+ cross wind and I'm going to dial my max range in to 200. I've done enough shooting I know how to compensate at that range, but farther out - I'll pass. (I have a little hand held wind meter, which isn't a bad thing to bring along if it looks like it's not going to be calm) On a calm day, I can keep my rifle on a 12" plate at 500 yds off the bench. (I wouldn't take a hunting shot that far) I guess what I'm saying is Steve is right, if a new HPR hunter is going to go buy a shiny new bolt gun sight it in 2" high at 100 and go hunt and try and make 300+ yd shots he is in for a rude awakening. I really like the B&C reticules as well; some kind of system like that is very helpful.
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Post by stevein on Sept 6, 2014 9:37:14 GMT -5
When the subject of long range shooting comes up I always wonder if the shot was made at measured/range finder yards or what I call Bubba yards. Bubba yards are usually 18 to 24 inches When we had our range people would not believe that the 50 yard range was not 75 and the 100 was not 200 or so. My own long range experience is with ML round ball guns. There have been very few occasions when I have seen deer that I had to pass because they were out of range but that could my chiice of hunting more in the woods than the fields. I think hunters in Indiana would benefit more from practicing from field positions than the use of longer ranging rifles. Go to most ranges and see how many folks are shooting offhand at the longer ranges, not many.
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