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Post by dominator on Apr 1, 2014 20:27:26 GMT -5
I posted this on the "other" site earlier. Its a shame that all of us hunters cant even agree about issues within our own community.
All I have to say is be careful what you wish for! I am a hunter, my son is a hunter, my father and my grandfather. I don't post here much but read and visit almost daily. I read all these posts against other "hunters". Whether we like it or not, people who go to preserves are "hunters". Over 50% of the people in this country are anti-hunting. United we stand and divided we fall. When you alienate the rest of the so called hunters,then our numbers as hunters get even smaller. Can we withstand a charge from PETA/HSUS or whoever when they destroy deer farming then come after us? As long as animals are not being abused and regulations are followed, if someone wants to hunt in a pen then let them, that doesn't mean I have to. It doesn't matter if we agree with hunting in a preserve or not. We are destroying ourselves by supporting this "anti-hunting" expose. Not to mention that he says our wild deer are infected with disease from the penned deer. Now we are going to have people that will not hunt because of that. Plain and simple the research facilities in Colorado and Wyoming were responsible for initially spreading CWD from their research pens. Whether we like it or not CWD is here to stay regardless of how it got here. I'm sure if they looked hard enough it is here too.
span posted "And it MAY come from captive breeding. All everyone including biologist are doing is speculating. The problem I see is we most likely never will know what or where it started. Even if all deer farms were put out of business and its still around guys will still say look what those deer farms did. Who's to say captive herds didn't catch it from interacting with wild herds? So we put many farms out of business on a speculation."
we don't know, all we know is that it was first recognized in the gov. research facility in Colorado. Likely jumped species from sheep.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 21:06:22 GMT -5
Over 50% of the people in this country are anti-hunting.. This stat is patently false. Polls show that a large majority Americans support hunting (when the meat is eaten) The support is far less for trophy hunting, though.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 2, 2014 7:59:33 GMT -5
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Post by dominator on Apr 2, 2014 9:54:31 GMT -5
Sorry should have not said anti, i didn't mean it in the sense of the "anti's" literally. Just meant people that would not hunt if given the opportunity. statistics can be very misleading. people might approve that it's OK for others but they wouldn't do it themselves. that's all I meant. I've never been one to throw stones and try to mind my own business, so that's where I'm coming from. I'm more worried about our own deer population in the wild than to worry about whether somebody wants to hunt in a pen or not. my opinion is this is a free country and if that's how they want to hunt thats their business.
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Post by MuzzleLoader on Apr 2, 2014 9:54:46 GMT -5
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Post by jjas on Apr 2, 2014 11:57:14 GMT -5
I remember reading that when it came out. Years ago we were told to never kill does. Then it became, you can kill all the does you want. Now, it's "holy crap, we're killing all our deer"..... The reality is we are somewhere in between. There are areas that are being over hunted and areas that still have too many deer. The rest of the state(s) falls somewhere in between. But we must understand that states want the herds reduced and they'll keep pushing us to kill does until the goals are met and maintained. The other side(s) of the issue that people don't seem to concern themselves with (and ties directly into the previous paragraph) is habitat (or loss of habitat). Many forests in this country are old and no longer can support wildlife numbers like they once could. Farming practices are different too. When I was a kid, fence rows were wide and overgrown, but now land is farmed "right to the fence". And when the crops are harvested, it looks like someone vacuumed the fields. Point being, row crops and food plots are all fine and good, but deer need natural browse to sustain themselves through the year and especially during the Winter months and that natural browse is disappearing. Hunters have had it good over the last 20 years or so. Plenty of deer and plenty of trophy bucks to be had. We've spent money like water in the pursuit of deer to the point where we've ignored practically all other species. Few of us hunt squirrels or rabbits anymore. Most of us wouldn't hunt turkey if that season wasn't in the spring. Timber and farming practices have destroyed the bird habitat, so we concentrate on deer. And look where this obsession has taken us. We are leasing/buying land to keep others from killing "our deer". We fight constantly over equipment choices and season lengths. The only time we seem to agree on anything is the subject of this thread. Most of us don't want to see high fence preserves and deer farms. We worry about the spread of disease and feel that high fence hunting isn't sporting. But yet, many of us would happily go to Texas and hunt behind high fences and not feel bad about it because the ranches are so large. So even on the one thing we seem to agree on....many of us really don't. Ultimately, I think our obsession with trophy bucks will lead to high fence preserves in Indiana (and many other states). It may take a bit of time to get them, but the reality is there are too many people with deep enough pockets and a desire to put a booner on their wall for it not to. Let's be frank. Americans like getting what we want, when we want it. And hunting preserves and deer farms may just be another means to an end to do just that....get what we want.
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Post by shouldernuke on Apr 2, 2014 16:04:39 GMT -5
I find it funny in a way for those pushing loss of habitat as the reason for a steep decline in the herd .That the fact is the habitat is almost identical to what it was here in our state just 10 years ago when were supposedly over populated and the state wanted to lower deer numbers here .That is a fact that the opportunists want to keep driving home when in fact the only real reason that the herd is in the state it is is due to over hunting of doe herds in most areas and the compounding of year over year EHD that was far more sever than has been let on by many and the DNR .
I mean in the previous post jj states in one breath that habitat loss has caused lower deer number and in the other that for the last 20 years hunting has been great and lots more deer than ever before .So what is it big numbers brought down by reckless doe killing pushed by QDMA / trophy hunting mentality .Or the DNRs around the country "who are just puppets for the real power insurance companies who support politicians by lobbying and campaign contribution" .Think about it this is not as trivial as many make it out to be .And penned deer hunting has nothing in the real causes here they are just receiving the wrath of hunters who do not agree with it because its not how they want it done .
After all if the DNR seemed to panic or draw down the Antlerless harvest quickly would alert the hunters in this state that something as wrong and they in turn would stop buying license and shoot doe where they needed to be shot .
That is the facts as I and most hunters in the state that are a bit more than casual hunters are seeing at this time .
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Post by jjas on Apr 2, 2014 23:51:06 GMT -5
I find it funny in a way for those pushing loss of habitat as the reason for a steep decline in the herd .That the fact is the habitat is almost identical to what it was here in our state just 10 years ago when were supposedly over populated and the state wanted to lower deer numbers here .That is a fact that the opportunists want to keep driving home when in fact the only real reason that the herd is in the state it is is due to over hunting of doe herds in most areas and the compounding of year over year EHD that was far more sever than has been let on by many and the DNR . I mean in the previous post jj states in one breath that habitat loss has caused lower deer number and in the other that for the last 20 years hunting has been great and lots more deer than ever before .So what is it big numbers brought down by reckless doe killing pushed by QDMA / trophy hunting mentality .Or the DNRs around the country "who are just puppets for the real power insurance companies who support politicians by lobbying and campaign contribution" .Think about it this is not as trivial as many make it out to be .And penned deer hunting has nothing in the real causes here they are just receiving the wrath of hunters who do not agree with it because its not how they want it done . After all if the DNR seemed to panic or draw down the Antlerless harvest quickly would alert the hunters in this state that something as wrong and they in turn would stop buying license and shoot doe where they needed to be shot . That is the facts as I and most hunters in the state that are a bit more than casual hunters are seeing at this time . With our present timber and farming practices (not to mention sprawl continuing to eat up what once was deer habitat) many areas can't/won't support the wildlife it once has. And without adequate browse, deer may struggle to survive when the crops and food plots have disappeared for the year (especially when we have Winters like this past one). That is just one problem that the DNR is trying to address with herd reduction. As far as QDMA and their doe harvest agenda. Sure, they pushed for it, and many states DNRs (and hunters) supported it as well. But what I feel wasn't factored in was losses from EHD and bad Winters. However....ultimately the DNR will decide what herd level is sustainable today. And until those goals are met and maintained, I think we'll continue to see higher bonus doe permits (in certain areas) than many hunters feel are justified. Finally...IMHO, "penned hunting" should be looked down upon. I can't understand the satisfaction someone gets from paying thousands of dollars to kill a genetically engineered freak buck in an enclosure. And when you factor in the potential for CWD (and other diseases) I don't see the appeal. Having said that, there are apparently plenty of people who see it differently and are willing to drop big money on places like these as they obviously couldn't exist without that support.
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Post by bullwinkle on Apr 3, 2014 9:44:38 GMT -5
Sorry should have not said anti, i didn't mean it in the sense of the "anti's" literally. Just meant people that would not hunt if given the opportunity. statistics can be very misleading. people might approve that it's OK for others but they wouldn't do it themselves. that's all I meant. I've never been one to throw stones and try to mind my own business, so that's where I'm coming from. I'm more worried about our own deer population in the wild than to worry about whether somebody wants to hunt in a pen or not. my opinion is this is a free country and if that's how they want to hunt thats their business. Dominator you cut your resume short. Tell the people that you're in the business. You have misrepresented yourself as well as facts several times on the other site as well. You have stated you are in the medical field when talking about human health, you're an equine vet that also has a whitetail deer farm. You have come on here to try and persuade hunters to back, stay silent, and not oppose your industry that you make money on. You lead with the we all need to stick together cry by declaring yourself a hunter. We have heard it all before, If they stop our canned hunts then your next. It is quite the opposite. If we as ethical sportsmen don't separate fair chase hunting and good conservation from shooting farm animals for vanity then we will surely go down in the eyes of the 90% of the public who will judge and decide our fate. If your industry has it's way hunting for the average man will be lost. Between the loss of access, spread of disease, price to participate as well as the loss of public support, hunting will be lost as we have all enjoy for a century. If wildlife management had been private like you are advocating instead of public the family you claim is all hunters would have never had the experience. Unless you are up to shooting your livestock too.
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Post by shouldernuke on Apr 3, 2014 20:49:46 GMT -5
Sorry should have not said anti, i didn't mean it in the sense of the "anti's" literally. Just meant people that would not hunt if given the opportunity. statistics can be very misleading. people might approve that it's OK for others but they wouldn't do it themselves. that's all I meant. I've never been one to throw stones and try to mind my own business, so that's where I'm coming from. I'm more worried about our own deer population in the wild than to worry about whether somebody wants to hunt in a pen or not. my opinion is this is a free country and if that's how they want to hunt thats their business. Dominator you cut your resume short. Tell the people that you're in the business. You have misrepresented yourself as well as facts several times on the other site as well. You have stated you are in the medical field when talking about human health, you're an equine vet that also has a whitetail deer farm. You have come on here to try and persuade hunters to back, stay silent, and not oppose your industry that you make money on. You lead with the we all need to stick together cry by declaring yourself a hunter. We have heard it all before, If they stop our canned hunts then your next. It is quite the opposite. If we as ethical sportsmen don't separate fair chase hunting and good conservation from shooting farm animals for vanity then we will surely go down in the eyes of the 90% of the public who will judge and decide our fate. If your industry has it's way hunting for the average man will be lost. Between the loss of access, spread of disease, price to participate as well as the loss of public support, hunting will be lost as we have all enjoy for a century. If wildlife management had been private like you are advocating instead of public the family you claim is all hunters would have never had the experience. Unless you are up to shooting your livestock too. Actually we have not enjoyed any deer hunting here for a century at all .As a matter of a fact just in the 1970s there were counties and places here in this state with no deer at all at that time.The deer hunting you are writing about only existed here in the last 25 - 35 years max state wide . And the fact is if you look at the other states that started outlawing any kind of hunting other types fell in short order as well .So yes it becomes easier for the politicians to say lets outlaw your type of hunting after the first kind is done .Once you start down that slop it gets faster the next time .
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Post by GS1 on Apr 3, 2014 21:56:45 GMT -5
And the fact is if you look at the other states that started outlawing any kind of hunting other types fell in short order as well .So yes it becomes easier for the politicians to say lets outlaw your type of hunting after the first kind is done .Once you start down that slop it gets faster the next time . Examples? Have you not been on here since December preaching about how the DNR needs to cut back on the antlerless harvest? But yet you claim that if they did it would alert hunters that something was wrong and they would quit buying tags and quit shooting does where it's needed? Isn't that a little contradictory?
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Post by shouldernuke on Apr 4, 2014 5:21:37 GMT -5
And the fact is if you look at the other states that started outlawing any kind of hunting other types fell in short order as well .So yes it becomes easier for the politicians to say lets outlaw your type of hunting after the first kind is done .Once you start down that slop it gets faster the next time . Examples? Have you not been on here since December preaching about how the DNR needs to cut back on the antlerless harvest? But yet you claim that if they did it would alert hunters that something was wrong and they would quit buying tags and quit shooting does where it's needed? Isn't that a little contradictory? Yes I have and I fail to see where the responsible setting of harvest limits on numbers of a wild herd here has anything to do with PENNED hunting . Fact is that if the DNR reacted as they should to the slide or crash in some areas the way they should the hunters with any brains at all would have a moment of realization that there is a problem and have to ask the DNR "WHY " for them selves why did you cut it back so sharply . Rather than just mindlessly keep pulling the trigger on the very deer that make baby deer and half of those baby deer are bucks . Come on man you can stop playing coy here you know exactly what I am saying here and just do not want to admit once an anti hunting law is set by those in charge it is easier to set the next one up just like gun control .First its the clip size then the weapon type ...Same thing here with hunting . California ,Bear ,Mt lion ,and now deer and Roosevelt elk have also been attacked and hanging on with a breath ,Also the strongest anti gun laws that effect hunting in the country ,. Lets be real here to some penned hunting hurts their sensibilities ,and to others its what they do ,and to others like me and every single hunter in this country in reality that does not do that type hunting "has no effect on us at all ". Its just something you guys don't like and there are people out there that do not like what any of us do every tim,e we kill an animal .Remember your type hunting is on the block every time you side with anti hunting agendas .
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Post by bullwinkle on Apr 4, 2014 15:13:33 GMT -5
The biggest lobby for reducing the wild deer herd and limiting access is the same lobby that is pushing high fence hunting. Who is that powerful lobbying organization? Farm Bureau Inc. For years thy have been the opponent of the sportsmen by lobbying for drastic reduction of deer in Indiana as well as changing liability laws that leads to more leasing and less access for the average sportsmen. They are also lobbying on behalf of the deer farmers extensively. There Vice President is raising deer. Anyone that has been around the legislature or the DNR will vouch for this. They are anti public hunting and pro privatization of the resource and wildlife to maximize profits for landowners and farm members. They only like hunters that pay yet when you turn it into a pay only system you eliminate the average deer hunter that is the management tool to control the deer populations. People paying big bucks only want to shoot big bucks whether it be behind the fence or outside the fence. There is no money or market for antlerless deer or even normal antlered deer.
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Post by bullwinkle on Apr 4, 2014 15:22:36 GMT -5
Examples? Have you not been on here since December preaching about how the DNR needs to cut back on the antlerless harvest? But yet you claim that if they did it would alert hunters that something was wrong and they would quit buying tags and quit shooting does where it's needed? Isn't that a little contradictory? Yes I have and I fail to see where the responsible setting of harvest limits on numbers of a wild herd here has anything to do with PENNED hunting . Fact is that if the DNR reacted as they should to the slide or crashh in some areas the way they should the hunters with any brains at all would have a moment of relization that there is a problem and have to ask the DNR "WHY " sor them selves why did you cut it back so sharply . Rather than just mindlessly keep pulling the trigger on the very deer that make baby deer and half of those baby deer are bucks . Come on man you can stop playing coy here you know exactly what I am saying here and just do not want to admit once an anti hunting law is set by those in charge it is easier to set the next one up just like gun control .Frst its the clip soze then the weapon type ...Same thing here with hunting . California ,Bear ,Mt lion ,and now deer and rosevelt elk have also been attacked and hanging on with a breath ,Also the strongest anti gun laws that effect hunting in the country ,. Lets be real here to some penned hunting hurts their sensibilities ,and to others its what they do ,and to others like me and every single hunter in this country in reality that does not do that type hunting "has no effect on us at all ". Its just something you guys dont like and there are people out there that do not like what any of us do every tim,e we kill an animal .Remeber your type hunting is onm the block every time you side with anti hunting agendas . It does have and effect on you. The TB found in the captive cervid herds in this state cost hunters and taxpayers 1.2 million dollars. The state also had to kill a lot of wild deer in and around those areas for testing taking away opportunity. That is just one example of a direct effect. There are many more examples of direct effect and indirect effect. Your just either ignorant of those or trying to mislead others.
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Post by shouldernuke on Apr 4, 2014 15:39:16 GMT -5
Yes I have and I fail to see where the responsible setting of harvest limits on numbers of a wild herd here has anything to do with PENNED hunting . Fact is that if the DNR reacted as they should to the slide or crashh in some areas the way they should the hunters with any brains at all would have a moment of relization that there is a problem and have to ask the DNR "WHY " for them selves why did you cut it back so sharply . Rather than just mindlessly keep pulling the trigger on the very deer that make baby deer and half of those baby deer are bucks . Come on man you can stop playing coy here you know exactly what I am saying here and just do not want to admit once an anti hunting law is set by those in charge it is easier to set the next one up just like gun control .First its the clip size then the weapon type ...Same thing here with hunting . California ,Bear ,Mt lion ,and now deer and Roosevelt elk have also been attacked and hanging on with a breath ,Also the strongest anti gun laws that effect hunting in the country ,. Lets be real here to some penned hunting hurts their sensibilities ,and to others its what they do ,and to others like me and every single hunter in this country in reality that does not do that type hunting "has no effect on us at all ". Its just something you guys don't like and there are people out there that do not like what any of us do every tim,e we kill an animal .Remember your type hunting is on the block every time you side with anti hunting agendas . It does have and effect on you. The TB found in the captive cervid herds in this state cost hunters and taxpayers 1.2 million dollars. The state also had to kill a lot of wild deer in and around those areas for testing taking away opportunity. That is just one example of a direct effect. There are many more examples of direct effect and indirect effect. Your just either ignorant of those or trying to mislead others. FYI that very same Bovine TB is in farm raised cattle .So now what outlaw all cattle operations that the deer may catch it from in a pasture with a infected cow?? Come on guys your reaching and just using the Disease card to further that distaste of what others do and that is Pen up deer and hunt them or use the products that come from them .LOL not the one misleading anyone here .The fact that those penned or wild deer caught TB and in other states CWD from other farm animals not just penned deer is the fact .You seem to either be the ignorant one or trying to mislead others this state did not need to spend 1.2 million on any TB in deer herds since we already employ the biologists and the killing area around that area cost us nothing as well .Once again misleading facts .
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Post by dominator on Apr 4, 2014 22:18:00 GMT -5
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Post by trapperdave on Apr 5, 2014 4:43:57 GMT -5
Go away deer pimp. nobody is drinking the koolaid
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