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Post by BIGHORN on Jul 26, 2014 7:14:37 GMT -5
Thank You.
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Post by cptmclark on May 3, 2015 11:59:15 GMT -5
Hello shooters,
Apologies for this turning out to be so long.
358 Hoosier, Savage action and Shilen 22" barrel, assembled by Mr Brown. Tested at 100 yards. I really appreciate all the time and effort that has gone into providing starting points for loading this cartridge. I've now shot three Indiana whitetail deer with the Hoosier and enjoyed creating two pages of range test reports building loads. Sadly I wasn't able to find the powders I would have preferred and was stuck with only two in the burning speed range; I4198 and H322. I started low, extrapolating charges for the unlisted powders for the bullets listed, recording all results. I had good and bad results, favorite loads found and have some serious questions about my particular barrel and Hornady custom dies.
The most accurate bullet of the three (Barnes 180TTSX, Hornady 200 I.L. and FTX), at the speeds I'm looking for, has been the Barnes. I didn't want it to turn out that way. Hopefully when I find more optimum powders I'll get better results from the Hornady IL, although what I have is certainly acceptable for hunting. I'm an accuracy nut and want to go way beyond what's useful for Indiana hunting so that maybe isn't relevant. Consitant sub MOA with the Barnes 180 and nearly MOA with lower speeds with the I.L.
Most accurate and consistent powder of the two so far with all bullets has been the 4198 which is not listed for these bullets by CT. Many ragged hole groups at all velocities tested from way slow up to about 2680 fps. Sadly, and probably the reason not listed, the highest speeds gave pressure signs and so had to be reduced only for that reason. I settled on a 180TTSX load for hunting, with 4198 at about 2600 fps, with extreme spreads in the single digits. Brass and primer changes made significant differences in accuracy and pressure, more than I've found in other calibers?? Since the 200 I L will do better than 2500 with the powders I have it clearly is the highest power option between the two.
First question; Initially I was having extreme spreads from the 100s into the 300s. Turned out the be the case to chamber fit being terrible from the Hornady custom dies. For one thing the shoulders were radiused (like Weatherby) and I don't know what other differences from the chamber, but after fire forming and wasting a lot of bullets and ink recording bad results I found the answer and had good luck from then on. I haven't talked yet with Hornady but the die certainly doesn't match my chamber.
In some cases I found the suggested max load to be too hot for my rifle, so the providers admonition to work up slowly and not just start at the top is wise and should be adhered to. Interestingly, on those loads I got equal velocity with slightly less powder. All guns are different, even the same make and model.
Second question; With all loads, the first shot from a cold barrel impacts more than 2 1/2 inches below the group. That is too far. Some first shot variation is not uncommon but not like this. Usually the second shot is in the group but sometimes it walks up so the third shot begins creating the group. From a cold fouled barrel the same occurs but maybe less pronounced. This is after about 400 rounds and a good bit of JB polishing. In addition, groups start expanding after maybe ten to 12 shots. That's not much fouling to give a loss in accuracy. I'll be grateful for ideas and suggestions about this. I contacted Shilen and it was suggested that more break in might be needed. More JB borepaste polishing and shooting hasn't made a change. Are these indications of barrel flaws?
Concerning the hunting results; for me, the 180 Barnes at 2600 fps is way overkill for Indiana whitetail, meaning over penetration. Place your shots carefully and don't expect the head, neck, shoulder, and chest cavity (added together) to stop the bullet. Some think you can't have too much penetration but I differ. Not go get too graphic in print, but it seems this bullet at 100 -150 yards will penetrate nearly end to end, including stuff you'd rather not hit. Two straight toward me shots proved that, and a classic broadside shot well placed did not give the sudden results I'm used to with Sierra cup and core bullets. I much prefer the latter on deer sized game after much experience. I'm eager to try hunting with the Hornady Interlock. Barnes is a great bullet for bigger critters I would think, and a lighter bullet could be used if one of these. Still extremely accurate is comforting if longer shots present themselves. I find this to be a 300 yard load if the bullet expands, and zeroed at 150 is best for me.
It looks from the provided charts that 10x and R7 have been the ones that work well with all bullets listed. Accuracy is another matter and rifle dependent. It looks like I'm stuck with the three bullets I have 180TTSX, 200IL and 200 FTX, and so eager to learn others' experience with accuracy loads for these. Never know when I'll find a powder opportunity. Maybe there are other accuracy nuts out there loading the truly neat and interesting 358 Hoosier. I've really enjoyed the fussing and learning from working with a wildcat.
Last, I find that even though a sized case will close in the chamber with no resistance, when loaded there is resistance in closing the bolt. Not much, but similar to touching the lands with the bullet, but I'm not doing that. Question is whether that indicates I might need to outside turn case as used to be recommended. Or is it no issue as long as it's mild?
If we get the "all rifle" law this next year I suppose this one may become a 350 Rem Mag, since I really like the feel and balance of the rifle and the chamber is about all I have to work with.
Thank you to all who make this such an interesting and informative thread.
m
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Post by HuntMeister on May 3, 2015 17:42:57 GMT -5
cptmclark, you have a private message...
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Post by BIGHORN on May 4, 2015 18:09:57 GMT -5
180 Barnes TSX is a good choice
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Post by omegahunter on May 6, 2015 7:14:29 GMT -5
When forming the Hoosier, the shoulder looks radiused, but it irons out on the first firing and stays that way when resized in our Hornady Hoosier dies. If it is putting a radius back on them, you have an issue with the dies!
I had one lot of Hornady 308 Match brass that the necks were too thick to chamber after seating the bullet. Those are still sitting on my bench waiting to get reamed or turned because I don't have anything to do it with.
I really like shooting the Barnes bullets because I find that I can eat right up to the bullet hole. They don't seem to bloodshot the meat like the lead bullets where the lead violently splashes into the adjacent meat during initial expansion.
I only have impact issues when shooting from a clean barrel and a few fouling shots put me right back where it should impact. Several years back I heard about a local guy with a 10/22 and a tensioned carbon fiber "heavy" barrel that would only group after it was warmed up a little. He gave up on it and got a blued steel heavy barrel and it shot fine. Whether that was a bad tensioned barrel or just the character of tensioned barrels I do not know.
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