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Post by drs on Oct 7, 2011 5:32:05 GMT -5
Some smiths are working on a 1.8" cartridge based on the 308 case. These have been tested and will get around 2550 fps with 200 gr bullets. This is the way I'll go, as I already have a Savage in 308, and no mods other than a barrel swap are required. This would be very similar to the .357 Herrett only rimless. Also there is a wildcat called the .375 Forsberg, with is based on a cut-down .308 case.
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Post by oldhoyt on Oct 7, 2011 6:22:07 GMT -5
The Herrett is a shade shorter, and also the parent 30/30 case is a bit smaller. Minor differences. The Herrett is often touted as one of the best handgun rounds for medium game.
I'm looking forward to getting the conversion done. Especially the case forming and reloading, and I'll finally shoot a rifle at the range for more than just "kicks".
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Post by drs on Oct 7, 2011 6:40:04 GMT -5
The Herrett is a shade shorter, and also the parent 30/30 case is a bit smaller. Minor differences. The Herrett is often touted as one of the best handgun rounds for medium game. I'm looking forward to getting the conversion done. Especially the case forming and reloading, and I'll finally shoot a rifle at the range for more than just "kicks". I was refering to the .308 trimmed back to legal length & necked-up to .357"-.375". If I were having a "Indiana legal rifle" built; I'd chose the .375 Forsberg. Another suggestion would be to shorten the .458 X 2" American to 1.8" and either neck it down or leave it .458" use 300 grainers.
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Post by hankhunter on Oct 7, 2011 7:45:06 GMT -5
The 308 necked up to 358 is the 358 win. It will work. I've cut the brass but not shot any. The 45-70 cut to 1.8 is excellent especially with the bullets with 2 canalures. The 45-70 also works well with the case cut to 1.625" The 35 remington works well with a case of 1.8 but I would not load a full tube magazine with them. The 35 rem will actually work with the 1.625 case. There is not much neck so I only shoot them single shot. The groups run about 3" @ 100 with often fliers to 5"
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Post by drs on Oct 7, 2011 8:36:16 GMT -5
The 308 necked up to 358 is the 358 win. It will work. I've cut the brass but not shot any. The 45-70 cut to 1.8 is excellent especially with the bullets with 2 canalures. The 45-70 also works well with the case cut to 1.625" The 35 remington works well with a case of 1.8 but I would not load a full tube magazine with them. The 35 rem will actually work with the 1.625 case. There is not much neck so I only shoot them single shot. The groups run about 3" @ 100 with often fliers to 5" I'd be VERY CAREFUL trimming rimless cases as the headspace is on the shoulder of the case and it's possible to move the shoulders back too much by improper resizing. Better to have a correct chamber matching a cartridge's dimensions by building a rifle chambered for a 1.6" to 1.8" length cartridge. On your .45-70 you can trim a little, but not much, as the headspace is on the rim.
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Post by oldhoyt on Oct 7, 2011 12:27:56 GMT -5
I'm considering getting this done by a guy in southern Indiana. The new barrel will have a chamber made specifically for the 1.8" case length. No headspace issues once set properly. I'm using the action from a 308 I already have, so I'm not considering other parent cases. I want to keep mods to a minimum. Also not interested in bullets over .357 diameter. I'll be reloading for this gun too, and I have a fair amount of once-shot 308 brass.
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Post by drs on Oct 7, 2011 12:55:35 GMT -5
I'm considering getting this done by a guy in southern Indiana. The new barrel will have a chamber made specifically for the 1.8" case length. No headspace issues once set properly. I'm using the action from a 308 I already have, so I'm not considering other parent cases. I want to keep mods to a minimum. Also not interested in bullets over .357 diameter. I'll be reloading for this gun too, and I have a fair amount of once-shot 308 brass. Sounds great! Using .308 brass will be a lot less expensive than using one of those expensive WSSM cases as a parent cartridge <good luck with your chosen wildcat>
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Post by oldhoyt on Oct 7, 2011 14:47:24 GMT -5
It should be just the ticket. A 35 cal, 200 gr bullet moving out at 2550 FPS will be all I need and more. I haven't taken a shot over 100 yds since moving here in '04. Plenty of time to get it done, but I'm thinking this spring.
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Post by boman on Oct 7, 2011 18:47:52 GMT -5
A 35 cal, 200 gr bullet moving out at 2550 FPS will be all I need and more. Yep---if you run a ballistics program you will find that that bullet at that speed has a point blank range of 237 yds when sighted in at 1.8 high at 100yds.
Steve
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2011 20:55:55 GMT -5
Who's the ballistics experts here. Say you take a new reamer and cut your chamber on the 358 WSSM to use 1.8" case, moving the shoulder as well as the neck, what could be gained by the .175" increase? If it's not at least 200fps, probably not worth the time and effort?
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Post by esshup on Oct 8, 2011 1:14:45 GMT -5
I haven't looked, but I don't know how much of the neck would be left.
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Post by drs on Oct 8, 2011 5:01:10 GMT -5
It should be just the ticket. A 35 cal, 200 gr bullet moving out at 2550 FPS will be all I need and more. I haven't taken a shot over 100 yds since moving here in '04. Plenty of time to get it done, but I'm thinking this spring. Very prudent move, using the .308 shortened & necked up to .357". There are tons of good .308 rifles out there & .308 brass is more available than the brass for these "New Age" cartridges & far less expensive. It's silly to spend $3 per live round (.358 wssm) when you can spend far less using .308 Brass. A 200 grain .35 caliber bullet moving at around 2,300 FPS should be powerful enough to bring down a 150 pound Whitetail. Use lighter weight bullets for hunting varmints.
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Post by cedarthicket on Oct 8, 2011 5:53:56 GMT -5
Posted 06-15-11 on Hunting Indiana web site under Deer Hunting -- “The 1.80 Inch Cartridge Proposal”:
"Increasing the case length of the Indiana-legal deer rifle cartridge from 1.625 inches to 1.800 inches increases the potential velocity of a given .358 inch diameter bullet (weighing 180 to 200 grains) by roughly 150 feet per second at the muzzle. Inherent in this conclusion is the assumption that both “wildcat” cases are based upon the same "parent" case and that they are fired in barrels having similar bore and length dimensions. A further assumption is that the case body diameter near its base is the same as the .308 Winchester “family” of cartridges.
I suspect that using the somewhat larger diameter Winchester Short Magnum family of cartridge cases a velocity increase of roughly 150 feet per second could also be obtained by going to the longer version. However, I have not had first hand experience with that family of cartridge cases. Obviously, regardless of what parent case is used the increased case length (and potential increased powder column) of 0.175 inches allows somewhat more powder to be used in the longer case. However, internal ballistics (specifically gas pressure) with commercially available smokeless reloading powders serve to limit velocity increases to a relatively "modest" amount, assuming both the short case and longer case are loaded to the same pressure."
Additional info:
One .358 wildcat with a case length of 1.800 inches (and based upon the .308 Winchester family of brass) is named the .358 Hoosier. This was developed earlier this year and test rifles have been chronographed with a variety of powders and bullets. The .358 Hoosier comes very close to matching the ballistics of the "fatter" .358 WSSM wildcat (1.625 inches long case).
Due to a working-hunting trip, and posting courtesy, more info will be posted later in a separate thread.
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Post by hornharvester on Oct 8, 2011 8:26:37 GMT -5
To me no more velocity gain you would get isnt worth the trouble to resize the reamer. To trim .060 off a case isnt hard to do at all. I really see no advantage and I will guarantee a deer can not tell the difference between 2800 fps and 3000 fps using a 180 grain bullet.
Barnes is suppose to be coming back out with their 180 grain .358 TTSX bullet and this should be the ultimate deer bullet for Indiana whitetail.
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Post by boman on Oct 8, 2011 8:33:46 GMT -5
moving the shoulder as well as the neck, what could be gained by the .175" increase? If it's not at least 200fps, probably not worth the time and effort? timex, I'm not sure this can be done from my experience. bottleneck cartridges headspace off the shoulder and I don't think you could fireform the case to 1.8in without separation and no custom die will stretch a case. when one wants to increase case capacity in an existing cartridge changing the shoulder angle to a steeper one is usually the norm. The 358 Grant does this with the 358wssm case. again the only practical way to get a significant increase in performance over the current 358wssm would be to experiment with the wsm family of ctgs at 1.8in in my opinion. I use 50grs of Tac with 180 grain bullets and get 2600fps out of a 25in encore and 2550 out of a 24in. mod 70. There is room for 2 or 3 more grains of powder but i have not gone there due to pressure and recoil concerns although either rifle could probably safely be shot. I consider 250yds. a comfortable max range for me although a 300 yd shot would only be 14in. low at these velocities. 300yds is a "long way" in typical flat country Indiana deer hunting; at least in my experience. Steve
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Post by danf on Oct 8, 2011 9:11:55 GMT -5
Moving the shoulder forward on a bottleneck cartridge is somewhat easy to do. It's done by necking up to a larger caliber, then resizing the neck down to the final caliber dimensions and creating a false shoulder at the appropriate place. The case needs to be fireformed at that point, which is where you run into the possibility of splits in the case if you are trying to move the shoulder an extreme amount. How much is considered "extreme" I can't honestly say, but I have a feeling .175" on a .308 sized case may be pushing the limits but with proper annealing it may be possible. For a low-volume wildcat it might not be a big deal, especially if it is only neck-sized following fireforming.
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Post by drs on Oct 8, 2011 9:41:28 GMT -5
Actually, Steve unless one is a real Firearm enthusiast especially with wildcat cartridges; I find that such loads as the .358 WSSM, or others in that group, overkill for Whitetail Deer. I've taken many Deer in Indiana and the average range is 50 to 75 yards, which I consider an average range in Indiana. The already legal .44 Remington Magnum is more than enough power for Deer, along with saboted shotgun slugs & M/L's. You don't need 2,600 FPS velocity with a .358" 180-200 grain bullet to harvest Deer in Indiana.
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Post by boman on Oct 8, 2011 10:21:27 GMT -5
Actually, Steve unless one is a real Firearm enthusiast especially with wildcat cartridges; I find that such loads as the .358 WSSM, or others in that group, overkill for Whitetail Deer. I've taken many Deer in Indiana and the average range is 50 to 75 yards, which I consider an average range in Indiana. The already legal .44 Remington Magnum is more than enough power for Deer, along with saboted shotgun slugs & M/L's. You don't need 2,600 FPS velocity with a .358" 180-200 grain bullet to harvest Deer in Indiana. Dave, I concure, until I started playing around with the centerfires every deer I have killed in Indiana has been with a 62caliber round ball Hawken I custom built back in the late 70's. The longest shot with that rifle has been 82yds. The centerfires just give me more lethal range which is what I enjoy now. Steve
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Post by hornharvester on Oct 8, 2011 10:53:45 GMT -5
Actually, Steve unless one is a real Firearm enthusiast especially with wildcat cartridges; I find that such loads as the .358 WSSM, or others in that group, overkill for Whitetail Deer. I've taken many Deer in Indiana and the average range is 50 to 75 yards, which I consider an average range in Indiana. The already legal .44 Remington Magnum is more than enough power for Deer, along with saboted shotgun slugs & M/L's. You don't need 2,600 FPS velocity with a .358" 180-200 grain bullet to harvest Deer in Indiana. No such thing as over kill......thats just a term used by someone to say "thats not the cartridge I would use". The 358 Grant used WSM cases to make his case. That is why I didnt build one using his barrels. I found fire forming the 25WSSM up to .35 was a lot easier. In my opinion there is not one PCR wildcat better than the other. Choose the one you like best and go kill deer. h.h.
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Post by dbd870 on Oct 8, 2011 11:01:13 GMT -5
It all depends on the range one will encounter. If you are going to be 100yds and in then the wildcats aren't a big deal - for those who can get the longer shots then by all means go for it.
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