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Post by Woody Williams on Nov 26, 2006 9:08:24 GMT -5
Local processor offers the proof: Bucks stop here
By Steve Ford
Sunday, November 26, 2006
If you want to know the state of the deer herd in the Tri-State, don't ask hunters.
They only know about the ones they see, about a sampling from a very small portion of the huntable land in the region, even if they're hunting several different locations.
If you really want to know what's happening with deer, talk to a guy who processes them, one of the guys who turn them from stately big game into lean fare for the table.
My neighbor Bill Rainey is one such man. He sees as many as 200 carcasses every year and talks frequently with others who see hundreds more.
Some of the information is anecdotal - like how the one-buck rule is working in Indiana. Rainey thinks it's a good thing.
"I talk to a lot of the deputy sheriffs who patrol the country roads," he said. "They tell me they're seeing more bucks this year than ever. That's a good sign because they're out there daily, they know."
It's also showing up in the sampling of the deer he's seeing as the season begins its second full week.
"Right now," Rainey said on Friday, "I'm seeing four bucks for every doe I process and most of them are 1½-year-old deer. After the first weekend guys are looking for anything to fill that buck tag.
"You see some really big deer the opening weekend and then that tapers off. Then you'll have a few more trickle in after that from the serious hunters. Right now the meat hunters want to get that buck."
That anxiousness to score antlers also shows up the following season in the survivors, at least the deer that survive to the following year. Many have been shot before.
Rainey walked to his cooler to show me what he meant. One buck that recently came in had a large wad of gristle behind its right front knee, the result of a wayward shot from the year before. Another had a stiff rear leg and another some scar tissue in the small of its back a whisker away from its spine.
"I'd say about 35-to-40 percent of the 2½-year-old deer I see have been shot before," said Rainey. "In older deer the percentage is even higher, maybe 90 percent. It's extremely rare to see a 4½-year-old deer that hasn't been shot before."
That tells us several things. There are a lot of bad shots out there and a lot of hunters. Most bucks get seen and shot at in season.
"I think most guys get excited and rush their shot," said Rainey. "Or they shoot at running deer. Hunters just need to take the time to get a good shot or let it go. Too many guys are just letting lead fly."
The good news is that a lot of these deer get away, survive for another season. The bad news is they shouldn't have to, but that's not likely to change.
Another interesting tidbit is about the biggest deer Rainey has seen this year, a 180-class buck. It got dropped by a Toyota Corolla. The car died, too. The only immediate winner was Rainey. He got the deer.
Rainey is still taking a deer as he moves them out, but his capacity is limited. Call first at 424-55633.
Contact Steve Ford at 464-7511 or fords@courierpress.com
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Post by bsutravis on Nov 26, 2006 9:47:28 GMT -5
What kinda phone number is that? Who edited this story???  |
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Post by hunter480 on Nov 26, 2006 16:59:15 GMT -5
It`s fine that his OPINION is that the obr is a good thing, but he apparently hasn`t seen the numbers that show that more bucks than ever are being killed each season.
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Post by ridgerunner on Nov 26, 2006 17:35:19 GMT -5
I can say this as what I consider a serious hunter for 20 years. I have seen more and bigger bucks the last four years than ever. That's hunting right behind the house here 80 acres, the same woods I've always hunted. The one buck rule has had a dramatic effect here in West Central Indiana and I've talked with many other serious hunters around here who feel the same. It has to help....common sense says it will. I can shoot one buck a year opposed to two, how does killingmore bucks help increase the numbers and quality of deer? The guys who cry about it not working are the ones who jsut want to shoot something and alot of em.Thats my personal opinion of course.....Most guys I talk with around here agree, the one buck rule is GOOOD!
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Post by hunter480 on Nov 26, 2006 18:27:16 GMT -5
I can say this as what I consider a serious hunter for 20 years. I have seen more and bigger bucks the last four years than ever. That's hunting right behind the house here 80 acres, the same woods I've always hunted. The one buck rule has had a dramatic effect here in West Central Indiana and I've talked with many other serious hunters around here who feel the same. It has to help....common sense says it will. I can shoot one buck a year opposed to two, how does killingmore bucks help increase the numbers and quality of deer? The guys who cry about it not working are the ones who jsut want to shoot something and alot of em.Thats my personal opinion of course.....Most guys I talk with around here agree, the one buck rule is GOOOD! What is hard to understand about this? More bucks are being killed now than even before the obr-so NO bucks are being saved. I live and hunt in West-Central Indiana too, and the obr has made no difference, and the FACTS and NUMBERS support that. |
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Post by Woody Williams on Nov 26, 2006 18:33:06 GMT -5
.............. how does killingmore bucks help increase the numbers and quality of deer? Good question.. You are aware that we (collectively)are killing more bucks now that before the OBR, right? Your "personal opinion" shouldn't be using a wide paint brush top paint by saying "ones who just want to shoot something and a lot of em". That is patently false. Quite a few of us are ever bit as "serious" of a deer hunter as you and we only take mature bucks and not a "lot of them". But we most certainly enjoy hunting them,. No doubt we are seeing more and bigger bucks now that in 2001 .. But guess what ? We saw more and bigger bucks in 2001 than we did in 1996. To assign that anecdotal evidence difference to the OBR is a big reach. As you said - ".....how does killing more bucks help increase the numbers and quality of deer?' We are killing more only the harvest has been transferred from a more difficult weapon to an easier weapon - IE archery to gun.
"Right now," Rainey said on Friday, "I'm seeing four bucks for every doe I process and most of them are 1½-year-old deer. After the first weekend guys are looking for anything to fill that buck tag.". |
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Post by Old Ironsights on Nov 26, 2006 22:49:04 GMT -5
Interesing point Woody.
While I'm not informed/qualified enough to comment on the OBR from a Game Management perspective, I CAN "follow the money".
With this rule, a meat hunter almost HAS to purchace 2 tags - just to be guaranteed at least one shot at somthing. Antler Hunters aren't bothered by this - but they still want their deer, so they whack the last buck they see rather than scrub the hunt entirely - thus, more dead bucks.
Not that I'm going to get to use them, but I bought Gun/Buck 1, ML (either) and a Bonus Antlerless just to cover my bases. If I was an Antler Only guy, I would be buying at least one less tag.
Follow the money.
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Post by cambygsp on Nov 27, 2006 6:33:42 GMT -5
Knightstown Locker said they are running 3 to 1 bucks over doe!
They also said they were a "little" down on checked deer (they are a check station).
I picked up my meat yesterday, I aint tryed any yet but I sure hope it was worth the $265.00 they charged me for 80 lbs of meat.
I got 20lbs of brats
20lbs of salami
20lbs of summer sausage
and 20lbs of snack sticks (slim jims)
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Post by rockster11 on Nov 27, 2006 9:17:52 GMT -5
Nice to see him take a stab at the unethical gun hunters out there who fling lead at anything they see....
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Post by Old Ironsights on Nov 27, 2006 12:07:14 GMT -5
Meat hunting is unethical?
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Post by kevin1 on Nov 27, 2006 12:37:41 GMT -5
That right there speaks volumes , it isn't protecting anything since the same age group is getting blasted just as it always has . If the same age group is taking the brunt of the hits and we're killing more bucks than ever then logic dictates that there will be fewer big bucks next year , not more .
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Post by 10point on Nov 27, 2006 14:32:04 GMT -5
I picked up my meat yesterday, I aint tryed any yet but I sure hope it was worth the $265.00 they charged me for 80 lbs of meat. Ouch! But it does sound good. |
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Post by Decatur on Nov 27, 2006 17:56:19 GMT -5
Knightstown Locker said they are running 3 to 1 bucks over doe! They also said they were a "little" down on checked deer (they are a check station). I picked up my meat yesterday, I aint tryed any yet but I sure hope it was worth the $265.00 they charged me for 80 lbs of meat. I got 20lbs of brats 20lbs of salami 20lbs of summer sausage and 20lbs of snack sticks (slim jims) I am so glad I process my own! WOW!! |
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Post by hoyt1166 on Nov 27, 2006 19:24:40 GMT -5
That right there speaks volumes , it isn't protecting anything since the same age group is getting blasted just as it always has . If the same age group is taking the brunt of the hits and we're killing more bucks than ever then logic dictates that there will be fewer big bucks next year , not more . Actually, the data suggests that the killing of 1.5 yo bucks is down and the killing of 2.5 and older deer are up. Now, the trend was there before OBR was instituted and nobody can argue with that. However, whether that trend would have continued is anyone's guess (that's neither a statement for or against OBR; we just never will know) However, in OBR we saw our lowest level of 1.5 yo bucks shot (on a percentage basis) over a 15 year period and we saw our highest level of 2.5 yo bucks shot (on a percentage and numbers basis). Additionally, during OBR we had our highest amount of bucks taken over the past 15 years. My question is this: Has the number of hunters increased or decreased during this time? I have my sneaking suspicions that we are losing more hunters than we are gaining and wish I could get my hands on the number of licensed hunters over that period. If my hypotheses is correct (and I have no way of knowing that; just guessing on that one) the numbers would then tell us that either A) our opportunities to harvest bucks hasn't really diminished based on the number killed versus a declining hunting population or B) as a state we are bucking the trend of a dwindling hunting population (which is a very good thing IMO) or C) since people can only shoot one buck, we're finding more "spouses" have suddenly taken up the sport of hunting. Not sure which it is but I'd sure like to find out. ANyone have an idea on where we can find the number of licensed deer hunters in Indiana? |
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Post by rockster11 on Nov 27, 2006 19:35:50 GMT -5
Meat hunting is unethical? No no no.. Im sorry I should have worded my post better.. I am talking about the gun hunters that shoot at anything and everything they see.. No matter the distance or posibility of harm to other people/hunters... Im sorry, should have worded it a little better.. There are some great hunters out there and there are some complete idiots who should never be allowed a bow or firearm.. I unfortunately dont get to see the good ones, I seem to always see the bad ones... |
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Post by ridgerunner on Nov 27, 2006 20:25:27 GMT -5
I was killing two bucks a year up until the rule was in effect. Since I had another buck tag to look foward to in gun season most archery hunters including myself would shoot a marginal buck in archery season knowing we had another tag to hunt the bigger bucks during the rut.
If we are killing more bucks now, then tell me how giving every archery hunter in the State another oppourtunity at a buck in gun season help the quality/age struture or numbers of bucks we have.
How many archery hunters do we have in the state? Not all of them will kill a buck in both seasons, obviously, but a certain percentage will kill two bucks every year if we have the 2 buck rule. I still don't understand how letting us kill two bucks every year helps??
I have 6 years of deer camera pictures and I can see a considerable difference in the quality and number of bucks I have on camera in the last 4 years.
If a guy needs meat for his family he can kill one buck and anywhere from 0-8 does depending on the county he lives.You have to ask yourself, why then do guys whine about the one buck rule, you can get more than enough meat from the deer we are able to kill to feed any family. The only conclusion I can come to is, hunters just wanting that rack as a trophy. If you look at the States that produce the biggest bucks they all have very conservative hunting regulations and management guidelines. I wish our gun season was shorter too, like Illinois. We need to start shooting more does. I personally am in favor for an " earn a buck rule", you kill two does to earn your one buck tag.
I'd like someone to explain to me how killing two bucks a year help our deer herd... Someone mentioned we are killing more bucks now than before the rule.....Thats becuase guys have been much more selective for 5 years and now we are reaping the reward of a good management plan. If we re-implement the 2 buck rule , we can only assume that even more buck will be shot each year..
Whats the argument anyway? You guys that want the 2 buck rule back. Whats your argument for the rule. Why should the DNR bring the rule back? Whats it going to do for our deer herd here in Indiana? I'm open minded...enlighten me...
No woody I wasn't trying to paint with a broad brush, but if you don't know what I mean by Weekend warriors go to Wal-Mart the day befroe season and listen to some of these guys that don't know what shells they need, buy a new gun two days before season, never sight it in, tresspass on other people property etc. those are the guys I'm talking about. Most serious hunters I know and I know many Love the one buck rule and feel one buck a year for anybody is good enough and anything more is just beng greedy. If you want to kill two bucks go over to Illinois and hunt their season and kill another buck. They have better management and deer quality anyways......
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Post by ridgerunner on Nov 27, 2006 21:01:16 GMT -5
Woody you said "harvest has been transfered from a harder weapon to an easier weapon"....
I gotta tell ya if I'd of had a good shot at a nice buck in archery I'd been done before gun season.. Like I said before if I can kill two bucks a year, then in that last week of archery if I haven't filled that extra buck tag I may shoot a younger marginal deer instead of holding out for a bigger more mature buck in gun season which is harder for a hunter to harvest, and there is a good possiblility I may not fill my tag if I hold out ,which translates into younger deer surviving that years season to be even bigger next year...
Each hunter has to be a manager of the land they hunt. My answer is quit shooting the 1-1/2 yr old deer and wait, no matter what the DNR does, each hunter has to decide when to pull the trigger. I feel as stewards of the land we hunt, it is our obligation to preserve and mange the land as responsible hunters. If a guy can't be more selective and settle for one buck a year then I see that as being greedy...
One buck is plenty it makes us more appreciative of our natural resourses and selective. If you want to shoot bigger buck then hold out, hunt harder and smarter and in the end you'll appreciate that buck for all the hard work and hunting that went into it.
Hunting involves( as I'm sure you already know) scouting, preparing, hard work, knowing your weapon,managing your scent, hours of practice and outsmarting the animal you're after...I have to say I'm happy with just shooting one buck a year here in Indiana.
Our state for many years has had a flawed management plan just to sell tags...you know.." follow the money" as someone mentioned above... All you have to do is look at Illinois and the quality of deer they turn out..They have a good plan..
I'm am definately not trying to offend anyone we are all in this together and I've attended meeting, wrote congressmen, pay my dues to many organizations to support our right to hunt,trap etc.., but the majority of guys I hear complaining are mis informed.
There are no FACTS as someone else put it, you can't compare numbers from one year to the next there are way too many variables( example: EHD this year, hard winters, geographics, hunting pressure,buck to doe ration etc.)
You may not be seeing as many mature bucks in your woods as another guy becuase maybe in your woods there's umpteem hunters blasting anything that moves, tromping the woods everyday instead of setting in a stand etc., where the other guy has no pressure in his woods, sits in a stand, carefully approaches his stand location, plays the wind, use scent elimination techniques, shoots mature deer only, harvests does according to a management plan, plants food plots for deer nutrition etc, etc............Too many varibales...One buck rule is good in my book..
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Post by Woody Williams on Nov 28, 2006 9:56:28 GMT -5
WOW... two long posts. I'll do my best to keep up..The deer Indiana biologist said that there were 6,000 deer hunters double dipping when they could kill two bucks. If you will just look at the number of bucks NOT killed by archers and compare that to the number of bucks that ARE killed by gun hunters since the OBR came into effect it will be very plain to see that the archers are passing bucks that the gun hunters are killing. If you had the trail cameras out from 1996 I’m quite sure that you would have seen a “considerable” difference from 1996 to 2001 too. The number and age of the bucks is not in dispute. It is how we got there that is a bone of contention. BTW – the age of does is experiencing a shift too. How can that be is we can take 341 does a year? BTW - the last ten years of the 2 buck rule I doubled up twice, but went buck less for two years. Now, I do hunt very hard and am very selective. But, if you will averag that out you will see it was one buck a year taken. Granted each state is different and the antler growing proponents want to pick and choose from these states. They point to Illinois - when reminded that Illinois has a two buck limit for all deer hunters they say – “well their season is short and out of the rut. They then point to Kentucky and say “The OBR works”. When reminded that Kentucky moves their LONG gun season to coincide with the rut - “Oh, but they have the OBR.” Cherry picking…. For them the grass is always greener in these “big buck states”. Indiana is number 6 of the whitetail states in producing record book bucks. That is not too shabby for “deer mismanagement” as some claim to be happening. I have seen data from other states that are experiencing an age shift in their bucks similar and most times better than ours. These are multi-buck limit states. In fact of the top 10 record producing states ONLY two have a one buck limit. No, explain to us how cutting back on hunting opportunity by the OBR has helped the herd. The deer biologist has said that the OBR made NO significant difference in the herd. He said it is purely a social issue. Are you now trying to say that anyone to keep the two-buck rule is a “weekend warrior”?? First you said –“The guys who cry about it not working are the ones who just want to shoot something and alot of em” and now we are “weekend warriors”?? Yes, that is a wide paint brush. Yep.. and that is exactly what the deer biologist said and has been proven out in the harvest data. I agree on that, but tell me how this OBR is keeping your “weekend warrior” from killing that forkhorn yearling on opening day? NOTHING has changed for these guys. It is business as usual only now the archers are providing them with more targets. My suggestion to you is that the major reason that you are seeing “a considerable difference in the quality and number of bucks I have on camera in the last 4 years.” is because you are doing the QDM thing. QDM , in some form or another, is catching on and the aging deer hunter population is becoming a LOT more selective on what they will and will not shoot. Are you saying that a person that hunts two bucks a year cannot be “selective” on both bucks? C'mon... LOL… What makes you believe that I don’t already do that? You mean their “two buck plan”?  Are you saying that Illinois doesn’t “follow the money”? Have you priced their tags, outfitter’s fees and lease fees? Sure there are variables from year to year, but that is taken into consideration. The IDNR deer biologist has followed the TREND line of this and he has said “the OBR has made NO significant difference”. This is the guy that we have hired to keep tabs on our herd. If we cant believe him, who should we believe?
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Post by LawrenceCoBowhunter on Nov 28, 2006 10:36:58 GMT -5
I've made a few trips to some deer processing busineses over the last week or so..From what I seen and what my friends told me who run the places that 80-85% of the bucks are less than 2 years old,that's fine if someone want to take a deer like that.So what's the purpose of the OBR if all these little bucks are getting shot?If one buck is good enough for you or all you need,then by all means keep it that way,but don't put restricitons on the rest of us who don't agree with it..Any deer taken with archery is doing great,but I really don't belive I should have to pass on a buck during gun season for taking one during bow..I think I might have taken 2 buck twice in one season since I have been hunting..I just like the oppurtunity hunting for another..
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Post by dec on Nov 28, 2006 10:37:57 GMT -5
Ridgerunner, good Pro-OBR posts such as yours just falls on deaf ears around here. Trust me I know, I've been down this road countless times. I think if some would re-read what the butcher said in the original post is clearly points out a couple things wrong with hunting in our state. Look at the age structure of what he said is brought to him, read what he said the local officers are seeing, and then re-read about bucks that have been shot multiple times prior to being brought in. Goes to show you right there how many SLOBS there are out there. "90%" by estimation of older deer have been shot before. How sad is that?!?!?! Some will just never get it. First you can't have older mature deer if you are going to shoot young deer, OBR or no OBR. Second, SLOBS are everywhere, swiss cheesing and wounding deer. All that butcher sees are the bucks that have been shot before that made it. How many did not make it and died a slow death never to be found because some SLOB took an unethical shot? Truly a sad state of affairs for hunters in Indiana.  |
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Are you saying that Illinois doesn’t “follow the money”? Have you priced their tags, outfitter’s fees and lease fees?
