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Post by hunter480 on Oct 21, 2007 11:32:14 GMT -5
Well I said I would post on this subject and so I will. I’ll try to offend everyone that is pro HIGH FENCE to the best of my ability. (Relax, I’m just kidding!) I would first like to say thanks to Doug Allman and his work on this issue. Now Doug will be the first to tell you that I don’t agree with everything he says or does by any means at all. BUT Doug has put in a lot of time and effort for sportsmen in general and he has been one of the main leaders on this issue as well. I disagreed with some of the tactics used in the past but at least somebody was doing something which is more than we can say about the majority of hunters in this State. Oh sure there are tons of us that “talk” about doing something but how many really back up what they say? Doug’s comparison to Michael Vic raised some eyebrows for sure and that’s not a bad thing at all. I don’t believe for one second that he was trying to get the Anti- hunting crew on board. Heck they are already on board without our help on this on. Doug’s comment I think was directed toward another segment of our society. (I’m not speaking for Doug here at all, this is just my opinion. Doug is more than capable of explaining his comments himself.) You see there are a lot of people out there that don’t feel one way or the other on hunting yet when they hear or see news stories about “ SO CALLED HUNTERS” shooting pen raised deer behind a fence then their position about hunting could be swayed against us. HECK for all they know that’s what we call hunting. Doug’s comment makes it clear that the REAL hunting community holds itself to a higher moral and ethical standard and that majority of the hunters find the practice of pen shoots disgusting. Just as we find putting two beautiful dogs in a pit and watch them fight to the death! That’s not what we are all about as hunters. All real hunters are not all that obsessed with “kill” anyway. Some of you need to cut Doug a little slack here. Hey I know he is with the IDHA and yea I know about the whole OBR and PCR thing but look beyond that and give credit where credit is due. Let’s protect what we have and agree to disagree from time to time but at least be man and or woman enough to say when someone is right and is doing the right thing on a bigger scale. This isn’t Texas and I can tell you there is no way there is a fenced preserve in Indiana that could be considered fair chase! These deer are trained and fed and specific times over feeders for lords sake. Now how much time does it take to scout out where you are going hunt.uh I mean kill! That’s what it is folks it’s just killing! Now if these places continue then I propose that a law be passed preventing the owners of ever use the word “HUNTING” because as a REAL hunter I don’t want to be thought of that way by the community at large. I want to sway more people over to my side and see that we are protectors and defenders of the resource and that yes we harvest from time to time but we would do it in an ethical manner and by doing it we are ensuring that everyone hunters and non hunters alike will be able to enjoy it for years to come. Ironsights you are correct about Crane and other places around the State they are fenced. Most of the fences are six foot or less and I watched as many as 15 jump the fence at Crane at one time. These Deer are need Bred for genetics nor or they trained to come to timed feeders twice a day. OK I’m done …………. For now anyway.lol I had a great morning hunt and can’t wait to get back out there tonight! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) gundude- For all you said, still, the only thing i can agree with you on is that the play pen operations are a black eye on hunting and need to go. Past that, I can`t see where you`re coming from. The Michael Vick comment made no sense to me, it was a statement made, then left out there. Nothing leading up to it, nothing after it to explain why it was there or what the heck it meant. I can`t look past someone`s prior attempts to discredit absolutely reasonable issues either, even IF they`re legitimately pursuing a noble cause this time. Once character is in question, it`s always in question with me. The one thing I had to laugh at though, pass a law that the word "hunting" can`t be used for the play pen operations? Very nice thought, but I`m guessing that comment was very tongue in cheek.
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Post by Chucker on Oct 21, 2007 12:12:13 GMT -5
Well il weigh in and let the attacks begin..Im a big boy and I can take it so fire away...
I hope the state loses the high fence lawsuit.I dont care where anyone anywhere shoots there deer period....I dont and never have hunted behind a fence,But I have no problem with someone who does... Also anyone anywhere at anytime who supports PETA is an anti in my book! Let the market deside if high fence operations make it or not.Not the State!Apparently there plenty who want to hunt this way so live and let live. Deer hunting is deer hunting and I could care less how anyone else does it.The sad part to me is to see some here who are the antis best friends,Were in trouble when some so called hunters are willing to join antis to stop someone else from hunting.. So to all those who HUNT behind the fence today good luck and to all who like me hunt private property good luck also.Its all the same to me.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 21, 2007 12:44:57 GMT -5
Well il weigh in and let the attacks begin..Im a big boy and I can take it so fire away... I hope the state loses the high fence lawsuit.I dont care where anyone anywhere shoots there deer period....I dont and never have hunted behind a fence,But I have no problem with someone who does... Also anyone anywhere at anytime who supports PETA is an anti in my book! Let the market deside if high fence operations make it or not.Not the State!Apparently there plenty who want to hunt this way so live and let live. Deer hunting is deer hunting and I could care less how anyone else does it.The sad part to me is to see some here who are the antis best friends,Were in trouble when some so called hunters are willing to join antis to stop someone else from hunting.. So to all those who HUNT behind the fence today good luck and to all who like me hunt private property good luck also.Its all the same to me. I won`t attack you-although I FEEL attacked. I`m hardly an ANTI, simply because I come down on the same side of an issue as an anti`s agenda. At times, it makes sense to use an opponents time, energy and strengths to further your own agenda. It`s foolhardy in fact, to ever turn away help dealing with something you believe strongly in.
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Post by gundude on Oct 21, 2007 13:58:55 GMT -5
The siding with the "ANTI's" has been a slogan long used by those that support and/or own one of these operations. It's a clever tactic really. They use this crap to divide us. Page one of the Clinton play book!
Now Ill try and clarify the VIC comaparison. If people think that people that hunt do so in pens then why would they not be just as disgusted at that as they would be when they hear the VIC story? Again you have to keep in mind there are a lot of people out there who know little or nothing at all about hunting outside of what they read or see on the boob tube. Do you really want to be thrown in the same catagory as VIC? DO you really want the common JOE to think that shooting a pen raised deer is what we call hunting?
P.S. CHUCKER you make me chukle........LOLOLOLOLOL...plzzz
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Post by Old Ironsights on Oct 21, 2007 19:42:11 GMT -5
Thank you Gundude for your comments.
FWIW, as someone new to the State looking for hunting opportunities, I've visited a few Leasing &/or high-fence operations in Amish Country.
#1: there ARE a few who keep near 1000 acres under fence. Not large, but certainly more than a "pen".
#2: Yes, those "large for indiana" operations are tiny compared to some of the ranches I've visited in the US SW.
#3: I don't mind disagreeing with people over Political Issues, but when someone LIES for political benifit, it really turns me off. There are several people who I might have agreed with on other issues who LIED or spun hard enough during PCR that I have no respect for their opinion any more.
#4: As long as WE do not differientiate between drugged/tiny pen shooting vs. 500+(to pick a random number) acre high-fence operations, the non-hunting public will not differentiate either. Hunters need to decide what the genuine, practical difference between "high fence hunting" and "pen" shooting. (FWIW, we ALSO need to differentiate between the previous two and Herd Culling... Breeders DO need to cull their herds. I've culled herds before. I WILL NOT ever consider or discuss it as "hunting". But it IS somthing that must be done - and is a good way to test handloads...)
#5: It is Foolhardy to strengthen the position of your sworn enemy by supporting/working with them on ANYTHING. If you agree with a single point under discussion, provide YOUR OWN response. DO NOT support theirs. Come up with somthing 99% the same, but different enough to set them apart nfrom you. If you don't, you are validating their existence.
"High Fence" operations are NECESSARY to protect the biodiversity of the US... (unless you are absolutely against the importation of non-domestic game species)... do you really want Blesbok taking over where Whitetail should be ranging?
Whitetail are WAAAY more wily and resiliant than most people give them credit. On my buddy's High Fence (exotic) ranch in Texas, he can't keep the White Tail (and hogs) from getting IN the ranch and causing trouble for his exotics... 12ft fence or no.
Anyway, all is NOT black & white on this issue - unless you are talking Drugs.
Drugging/1-acre pens = BAD. Other than that, Circumstance and enviornment change things significanty enough that blanket statements/laws are just silly.
my 2p.
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Post by jackc99 on Oct 21, 2007 21:21:39 GMT -5
Having attended a great many of the DNR meetings on high fence hunting and knowing a little about the workings of the DNR I think I can offer an opinion. The high fence operations are currently operating under the game breeders license which no where allows for the hunting of captive cervids. While there may be one or two operations in Indiana that have 1000+ acres the general size is 100-500 acres and it's not always one big pen. At Bellars there were a 1000+ acres...and then there was the killing pen used by Jimmy Houston and others that was what 5-10 acres? These animals may have SOME of their natural instincts but many do not. Ask any bird hunter that uses a game preserve (different license) whether or not the birds are same as wild ones. Of course they aren't. But even so the bird can always escape by flying (or running) off the property.
The main reason for opposing the deer farms and high fence operations is disease. CWD isn't in Indiana yet. It has however jumped to other states. If ya'll think EHD is bad wait until CWD gets here. Last I heard Wisconsin has spent 30-some million dollars trying to eradicate CWD and they have failed miserably. That's twice the DNR budget for a single year.
I respect the ethics of everyone on here. I don't expect everyone to see things my way but shooting a deer is a lot more than just pulling the trigger. I think I owe the animal I hunt more respect than than to go inside a fence and have a drugged or uneducated animal walk up to me asking to be shot.
Finally after going to all these meetings I never once saw the PETA conspiring with the IDHA or any other conservation group. I think to call any other hunter (yes even the high fencers) an "ANTI" may be just about the greatest insult you can lay on fellow hunter. Of all the conservation groups I know and belong to none of them regard PETA as their ally.
Yes there is a lot of money involved. All of this wrangling and lawsuits to keep 10-12 operations going is idiotic at best. Most conservations groups are against them. The DNR is against them. Every major newspaper and TV station is against them. It's time to settle this and move on.
Jack
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 21, 2007 21:41:23 GMT -5
Thank you Gundude for your comments. FWIW, as someone new to the State looking for hunting opportunities, I've visited a few Leasing &/or high-fence operations in Amish Country. #1: there ARE a few who keep near 1000 acres under fence. Not large, but certainly more than a "pen". #2: Yes, those "large for indiana" operations are tiny compared to some of the ranches I've visited in the US SW. #3: I don't mind disagreeing with people over Political Issues, but when someone LIES for political benifit, it really turns me off. There are several people who I might have agreed with on other issues who LIED or spun hard enough during PCR that I have no respect for their opinion any more. #4: As long as WE do not differientiate between drugged/tiny pen shooting vs. 500+(to pick a random number) acre high-fence operations, the non-hunting public will not differentiate either. Hunters need to decide what the genuine, practical difference between "high fence hunting" and "pen" shooting. (FWIW, we ALSO need to differentiate between the previous two and Herd Culling... Breeders DO need to cull their herds. I've culled herds before. I WILL NOT ever consider or discuss it as "hunting". But it IS somthing that must be done - and is a good way to test handloads...) #5: It is Foolhardy to strengthen the position of your sworn enemy by supporting/working with them on ANYTHING. If you agree with a single point under discussion, provide YOUR OWN response. DO NOT support theirs. Come up with somthing 99% the same, but different enough to set them apart nfrom you. If you don't, you are validating their existence. "High Fence" operations are NECESSARY to protect the biodiversity of the US... (unless you are absolutely against the importation of non-domestic game species)... do you really want Blesbok taking over where Whitetail should be ranging? Whitetail are WAAAY more wily and resiliant than most people give them credit. On my buddy's High Fence (exotic) ranch in Texas, he can't keep the White Tail (and hogs) from getting IN the ranch and causing trouble for his exotics... 12ft fence or no. Anyway, all is NOT black & white on this issue - unless you are talking Drugs. Drugging/1-acre pens = BAD. Other than that, Circumstance and enviornment change things significanty enough that blanket statements/laws are just silly. my 2p. Well OIS- I can say, it IS black and white for me-and no, number of acres doesn`t matter to me. Whether it`s 5 acres ot 5,000 acres, if it`s behind a fence, it`s a play pen. Some will and do fell differently, but this is MY code of ethics.
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Post by gundude on Oct 22, 2007 19:40:03 GMT -5
The main reason for opposing the deer farms and high fence operations is disease. CWD isn't in Indiana yet. It has however jumped to other states. If ya'll think EHD is bad wait until CWD gets here. Last I heard Wisconsin has spent 30-some million dollars trying to eradicate CWD and they have failed miserably. That's twice the DNR budget for a single year. I respect the ethics of everyone on here. I don't expect everyone to see things my way but shooting a deer is a lot more than just pulling the trigger. I think I owe the animal I hunt more respect than than to go inside a fence and have a drugged or uneducated animal walk up to me asking to be shot. Finally after going to all these meetings I never once saw the PETA conspiring with the IDHA or any other conservation group. I think to call any other hunter (yes even the high fencers) an "ANTI" may be just about the greatest insult you can lay on fellow hunter. Of all the conservation groups I know and belong to none of them regard PETA as their ally. Jack Yea thats what I was trying to say............ ( Jack is much better at putting thing in persective than I am.lol) Hunt on FAIR CHASE...........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Old Ironsights on Oct 23, 2007 9:46:37 GMT -5
Well OIS- I can say, it IS black and white for me-and no, number of acres doesn`t matter to me. Whether it`s 5 acres ot 5,000 acres, if it`s behind a fence, it`s a play pen. Some will and do fell differently, but this is MY code of ethics. I understand - but then why would you support an effort to force your ethics on everyone else? We've got enough problems with the Islamofacists, PETArds and Democraps trying to do that. I would also like to know where the "line" is. I can go over to Dunes State Park right now and take pictures of the fence that seperates it from the National Park & residential areas. IIRC it's somewhere between 6 & 8 feet tall. Is DSP a "play pen"? If I had the money, I'd love to take you down to a texas ranch to kill feral hogs. I could get a helicopter to drop you blindfolded in the middle of the ranch and, if you were lucky, you MIGHT be able to walk to a fence in a hard day. The fence on that particular ranch is not to keep the animals IN as much as it is to keep animals OUT. Anyway, as someone who grew up Stalking, where you might cover 5, 10, 15+ miles on foot trying to sneak up on somthing, it seems odd that folks who sit in trees and wait for the game to come to you worry about "fair chase" (but then, I'm also just learning the tactics here, there are several things I admittedly don't "get" yet.) But, as you say, that is YOUR code of ethics. Mine is to oppose the idea of "Big Racks Uber Alles" that drives the breeding/pen-shooting industry. I'm more than happy to oppose "High Fence" on those grounds - but only those grounds (which includes the cross-State CWD importation issue).
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