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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 19, 2007 19:13:52 GMT -5
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Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 19, 2007 21:39:33 GMT -5
It's interesting, but the premise is faulty. let's try what he says here:
Do you already think you know and understand the patchwork of laws concerning handguns? I suspect that you would be shocked at what you don’t know. How would you answer the following questions:
• Have you ever carried a handgun to church? every sunday • Have you ever carried a handgun to your child’s school function? no kids, but damn skippy I would • Have you ever left your handgun in the car while at a child’s school? NO - that's an unattended firearm and STUPID • Have you ever carried a handgun into a major venue such as a concert or professional sporting event? everywhere there isn't a metal detector • Have you ever carried your handgun into a government building? everywhere there isn't a metal detector • Have you ever had your handgun in your purse or car while dropping off the kids at day care? no kids, but I ALWAYS carry...
If you answered “Yes” to any of these questions, then you may have committed an illegal and/or criminal act under Indiana or federal law -- perhaps even a felony.
And I say to him - I don't give a rat's patoot. My life and the life of those I care about - including strangers at "events", is not negotiable. It is the LAW that is wrong, not my actions.
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Post by Russ Koon on Mar 20, 2007 2:36:20 GMT -5
I haven't very often carried a concealed handgun, anywhere. Those times when I have, have usually been in violation of state law, although I am now licensed for lifetime concealed carry, so will be legal more often in the future, and intend to carry more often as well.
I fully agree with Old Ironsides in his assessment of the laws infringing on our second amendment rights to carry. Those laws are wrong..... not the honest citizen wishing to protect himself, his family or friends, or any other potential victims in his vicinity.
I do usually obey most laws that I disagree with, but not always the one that suggests that I put my life and that of others in danger by leaving at home the means to protect them if circumstances dictate the use of a weapon.
Rather be judged by twelve of my peers than carried by six.
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Post by dbd870 on Mar 20, 2007 3:51:59 GMT -5
I'll pass.
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Mar 20, 2007 6:32:08 GMT -5
I pack whenever I feel the need!!!!!
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Post by swilk on Mar 20, 2007 9:01:53 GMT -5
Old Ironsights:
Scenario .... you decide the law doesnt apply to you. You feel you are ok to go to a Sunday school presentation by the congregations children carrying your weapon. An officer in the crowd notices your weapon ..... he arrests you in the middle of church. You are charged with a felony .... judge doesnt like being told that you didnt feel the law applies to you and convicts you on all charges.
You are now a convicted felon that no longer has to worry about carrying, using or owning any weapons.
I dont agree with many, many laws .... but I usually follow them. Those that dont have a name .... criminals.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 20, 2007 9:18:37 GMT -5
No Officer in my church would arrest me for CCW - they all know I carry anyway. What does that tell you about the law? Just as there is the much maligned precident of Jury Nullification, Cops DAILY decide what laws are Just and should be prosecuted, and what "violations" should be ignored.
Also, as a matter of practicality, if ANYONE, cop or otherwise can tell I'm carrying, it's no longer concealed.
If there's no metal detector, I'm carrying.
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Post by paul3 on Mar 20, 2007 9:22:27 GMT -5
swilk> Was that what the King called them back in 1776?
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Post by Harley on Mar 20, 2007 9:32:59 GMT -5
Concerning this thread I will have to plead the 5th on my carrying practice. I do not believe in all the laws either and I know I have J-walked before, spit on a public sidewalk and even urinated in a public place so I cannot say that I have followed each and every law to the line or that I ever will. Call me a criminal but some laws are just senseless. If I get caught then I pay the price for my choices but the nice thing about it is that it is my choice.
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Post by swilk on Mar 20, 2007 9:43:36 GMT -5
I guess I should rephrase .... I usually follow every law that is chargeable with as a Felony.
Jaywalking .... seat belt ...... speeding ...... most everybody has been guilty of these types of things at one point in time. Felony counts are entirely different.
I am not willing to give up the many freedoms that would be lost with a Felony conviction.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 20, 2007 9:50:03 GMT -5
As someone who has worked in & around Law Enforcement... if someone wants to charge you with a felony badly enough, you will get convicted of one.
Hell, just being in possession of a firearm within that stupid "Gun Free School Zone" that extends for TWO BLOCKS around a school is technically a felony.
Ever driven through a school zone with a gun in your truck?
Like all types of prohibition, declaring the possession of somthing to be felonius is madness. Only the USE of a thing can be felonius, not the mere possession - regardless of what the law says.
Tried by Twelve, not carried by Six. Period.
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Post by swilk on Mar 20, 2007 10:21:56 GMT -5
So inadvertanly or unknowingly is the same as premeditated and knowingly in your opinion?
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Post by steiny on Mar 20, 2007 17:06:36 GMT -5
I am very pro gun. I own many hand guns, carry occasionally, and have the proper permit. I strongly support gun owner rights.
On the other hand, I feel there is a segement of the gun owning public that is "whacko pro gun" and downright stupid in the choices they make about carrying guns. Toting a gun into church or a school function are prime examples of this lunacy. These are clowns I do not care to be aligned beside as a gun owner, and frankly many shouldn't be carrying guns because they are not safe. Take a walk through any major gun show, and you'll see plenty of these whackos.
Nobody would ever suspect a SMART concealed carrier is ever toting a gun, he wouldn't expose it to view unless if was a life / death situation, and he dang sure wouldn't feel the need to tote one into a school or church.
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Post by greghopper on Mar 20, 2007 17:11:43 GMT -5
I am very pro gun. I own many hand guns, carry occasionally, and have the proper permit. I strongly support gun owner rights. On the other hand, I feel there is a segement of the gun owning public that is "whacko pro gun" and downright stupid in the choices they make about carrying guns. Toting a gun into church or a school function are prime examples of this lunacy. These are clowns I do not care to be aligned beside as a gun owner, and frankly many shouldn't be carrying guns because they are not safe. Take a walk through any major gun show, and you'll see plenty of these whackos. Nobody would ever suspect a SMART concealed carrier is ever toting a gun, he wouldn't expose it to view unless if was a life / death situation, and he dang sure wouldn't feel the need to tote one into a school or church. Good Post...I feel the very same way!!!!!
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Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 20, 2007 17:58:25 GMT -5
What about when the gangbanger enters the church and starts killing? Happened in Chicago not too long ago. Or when the whacko enters the school?
My Concealed Firearm is concealed. It hurts no one. It is seen by no none. Criminals and crazies specifically go to where people are disarmed by law or fiat to do their damage.
Look at Luby's Cafeteria. Or the raghead at the Mall in Oregon. Only by pure Luck was an off duty cop handy enough to stop THAT rampage.
Please explain to me how I am any less safe now, carrying a concealed firearm as a civillian, than I was when I was carrying an Open Firearm as a Cop & Security Guard.
I am Trained, and I remain Trained. I would venture to guess I am probably BETTER trained than a large percentage of active Cops - you know the ones, the ones who only fire their sidearms once a year at Qualification time... The ones who have their guns glued together with Pepsi from lack of cleaning - or have dead cartridges because they sprayed their guns down with WD40. I've seen both.
Like I said, if ANYONE, cop or otherwise can tell I'm carrying, it's no longer concealed.
There is no excuse for printing or other forms of display (I HATE fanny packs). The only time anyone will ever see my gun is when it has fully fallen in the pot - and then they will be GLAD to see it, law or no law.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 20, 2007 18:01:34 GMT -5
So inadvertanly or unknowingly is the same as premeditated and knowingly in your opinion? In the eyes of an anti-gun Judge is sure is. "Ignorence of the Law is no excuse"... Do a map of "gun Free School Zones" where you live sometime and just see exactly where "the Law" says you can't be in possession of a firearm...
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Post by JohnSmiles on Mar 20, 2007 18:08:05 GMT -5
I am very pro gun. I own many hand guns, carry occasionally, and have the proper permit. I strongly support gun owner rights. On the other hand, I feel there is a segement of the gun owning public that is "whacko pro gun" and downright stupid in the choices they make about carrying guns. Toting a gun into church or a school function are prime examples of this lunacy. These are clowns I do not care to be aligned beside as a gun owner, and frankly many shouldn't be carrying guns because they are not safe. Take a walk through any major gun show, and you'll see plenty of these whackos. Nobody would ever suspect a SMART concealed carrier is ever toting a gun, he wouldn't expose it to view unless if was a life / death situation, and he dang sure wouldn't feel the need to tote one into a school or church. Yes, there have been so very few life and death situations in our schools lately. . . There is just no way anyone would ever need a gun there, is there . . . ? As for Church, no I have never carried a gun IN Church. Not that I might not in the future see a valid reason to do so. There are a great deal of Muslims here, and that would surely be their target of choice if it ever came down to it. Do I think you NEED a gun in Church or at school? I don't think anyone NEEDS a bass boat or a set of golf clubs. I think if there had been some armed adults at several schools we have read about over the last few years, it might have been much different, and some young people might still be with us.
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Post by LawrenceCoBowhunter on Mar 20, 2007 18:11:36 GMT -5
What's the old saying? "It's better to have it and not need it,then to need it and not have it"Mine goes every where with me,except on my shining trips of course..
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Post by greghopper on Mar 20, 2007 18:19:22 GMT -5
What's the old saying? "It's better to have it and not need it,then to need it and not have it"Mine goes every where with me,except on my shining trips of course.. Why you give it up There... ??
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Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 20, 2007 19:45:57 GMT -5
Let me pose an interesting local example.
I am often in Gary/Hammond for work. The work I do there requires me to be essentially alone in empty buildings.
I carry a gun there - for obvious reasons.
However, there is a road that runs between Gary/Hammond and Chicago. My job takes me across that road. Nothing changes when I cross that road except that I become "a felon".
The gangbangers and dopers are still there. The probability that I will be assaulted is still high, but the Overloards of Illinois don't believe I am in danger... simply because I crossed a street into East Chicago.
One side of hte street I am an honest citizen reserving the Right to defend myself from danger, the other side I'm a felon in possession of an illegal firearm without a FOID.
How is that different from what you are suggesting - that it is reasonable to consider me a bad person for carrying in a church but OK for me to be carrying on the sidewalk outside the church.
When I was in the Army, it was impressed upon us that we were NEVER to follow an illegalor unethical order. What else but Unethical can you call a rule/edict/law that says I am not to be allowed to defend myself or others in time of material crisis?
Meh. If they don't have a metal detector, then they are giving implicit "don't ask, don't tell" permission.
And if I have to cap a badguy, I'll be more than happy to argue that in court.
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